Virgin Atlantic pilots consider strike over fatigue
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As I understand it, many managers are ex pilots.
So what makes a pilot want to become a manager ?
The pay is worse and there is less decision making (your point 4)
Swiss Steve
So what makes a pilot want to become a manager ?
The pay is worse and there is less decision making (your point 4)
Swiss Steve
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In British Airways pilot managers used to be referred to as 'Bidline Refugees'.
In those days seniority = lifestyle = money. If you did not have the seniority to write a reasonable roster then being full-time and junior sucked. OTOH being a junior pilot manager means you will pick yourself 1-3 trips a month, (usually departing on a Monday) and spend every weekend at home with the kids plus 17.5% uplift on current salary. What's not to like! To be fair that variety of managers were not very ambitious but resented being told to stay to 5pm every evening so the department looked like it was busy. Office life in a corporation!
In those days seniority = lifestyle = money. If you did not have the seniority to write a reasonable roster then being full-time and junior sucked. OTOH being a junior pilot manager means you will pick yourself 1-3 trips a month, (usually departing on a Monday) and spend every weekend at home with the kids plus 17.5% uplift on current salary. What's not to like! To be fair that variety of managers were not very ambitious but resented being told to stay to 5pm every evening so the department looked like it was busy. Office life in a corporation!
Rather ironically in the context, some pilots cannot handle the intensive rosters and the lifestyle disruption of today's line flying, and one route away from that is to get into management, which gives them their evenings, weekends, bank holidays, and Christmases off, as well as not having to do early starts or late finishes. They need to fly to keep their licence and landings recency up, but they can arrange to fly pretty much when they want and can chose their routes.
So a nice short there-and-back on a Friday morning, then home early because it is 'POETS' day. Never seemed to see them on Larnacas or Sharm El Sheiks, oddly enough !
Of course, once in management, they can change Ts & Cs to make their spreadsheets look better, without appreciating what those changes actually do to people's lives, since they - the managers - don't have to fly full-time rosters on the line.
So a nice short there-and-back on a Friday morning, then home early because it is 'POETS' day. Never seemed to see them on Larnacas or Sharm El Sheiks, oddly enough !
Of course, once in management, they can change Ts & Cs to make their spreadsheets look better, without appreciating what those changes actually do to people's lives, since they - the managers - don't have to fly full-time rosters on the line.
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They will strike and it will be to get their old scheduling agreements restored. Still think VS is on a shaky nail and I’m surprised at the amount of pilots giving up more secure jobs to join them in this uncertain world. VS do not have a good track record for junior pilots in uncertain worlds where bumps in the road appear. Still, the hats are nice…….
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So you don't have much useful to contribute.
The 'old' UK FTLs were more thought out, well developed over time and added to by very pertinent studies of actual pilot fatigue (both in short-haul, I took part in one, and long-haul). The EU FTLs were a political 'fudge'. (One of the 'fatigue models' used to 'enhance' the EU FTLs is based on fatigue studies on US railroad engineers!!)
I think the UK FTL’s were good for the UK. They may not have worked for, say Greece on a different time zone and less long haul and trans Atlantic flts. However, the one size fits all EASA regs may have improved the EU FTL’s’s on average, but it has dragged some countries FTL’s down to the average as well as raising some others. I realised we were doomed when I spoke to the EU’s raconteur for EASA (a Labour MEP) and basically got the cold shoulder and was told to my face that I didn’t know what I was talking about, as he had an ex BASSA rep on the payroll as his personal advisor and she told him all he needed to know about pilot and cabin crew fatigue.
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I think the UK FTL’s were good for the UK. They may not have worked for, say Greece on a different time zone and less long haul and trans Atlantic flts. However, the one size fits all EASA regs may have improved the EU FTL’s’s on average, but it has dragged some countries FTL’s down to the average as well as raising some others. I realised we were doomed when I spoke to the EU’s raconteur for EASA (a Labour MEP) and basically got the cold shoulder and was told to my face that I didn’t know what I was talking about, as he had an ex BASSA rep on the payroll as his personal advisor and she told him all he needed to know about pilot and cabin crew fatigue.
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Looking at 787 rosters, it looks like there's about one trip a week, avg 3 days off after. How does this compare with BA on the same fleet?
Does Ba fly less, more days off?
Does Ba fly less, more days off?
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Documentary- EASA failure to 'Regulate'
In a recently aired documentary on Dutch TV, senior officers within EASA claim there is no issue with pilots fatigue due to not having any "evidence" of such an issue.
The documentary throws considerable doubt on that claim.
Would it have anything to do with a significant amount of EASA's funding being provided by the airlines they are tasked with 'Regulating'
An English version of the documentary can be found here
The documentary throws considerable doubt on that claim.
Would it have anything to do with a significant amount of EASA's funding being provided by the airlines they are tasked with 'Regulating'
An English version of the documentary can be found here
Rather ironically in the context, some pilots cannot handle the intensive rosters and the lifestyle disruption of today's line flying, and one route away from that is to get into management, which gives them their evenings, weekends, bank holidays, and Christmases off, as well as not having to do early starts or late finishes. They need to fly to keep their licence and landings recency up, but they can arrange to fly pretty much when they want and can chose their routes.
So a nice short there-and-back on a Friday morning, then home early because it is 'POETS' day. Never seemed to see them on Larnacas or Sharm El Sheiks, oddly enough !
Of course, once in management, they can change Ts & Cs to make their spreadsheets look better, without appreciating what those changes actually do to people's lives, since they - the managers - don't have to fly full-time rosters on the line.
So a nice short there-and-back on a Friday morning, then home early because it is 'POETS' day. Never seemed to see them on Larnacas or Sharm El Sheiks, oddly enough !
Of course, once in management, they can change Ts & Cs to make their spreadsheets look better, without appreciating what those changes actually do to people's lives, since they - the managers - don't have to fly full-time rosters on the line.
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I'm reliably informed that the ex VACC chaiman, who was at the helm of pilot representation during the contentious 2020 redundancy consultations (and wholesale permanent change to all terms and conditions) has recently been appointed in a management role as Head of Flight Crew at the airline.
Captains made redundant. Seniority binned. Scheduling agreements binned permanently. All whilst consulting with a BALPA union Chairman - who now gets a management position.
Captains made redundant. Seniority binned. Scheduling agreements binned permanently. All whilst consulting with a BALPA union Chairman - who now gets a management position.
I'm reliably informed that the ex VACC chaiman, who was at the helm of pilot representation during the contentious 2020 redundancy consultations (and wholesale permanent change to all terms and conditions) has recently been appointed in a management role as Head of Flight Crew at the airline.
Captains made redundant. Seniority binned. Scheduling agreements binned permanently. All whilst consulting with a BALPA union Chairman - who now gets a management position.
Captains made redundant. Seniority binned. Scheduling agreements binned permanently. All whilst consulting with a BALPA union Chairman - who now gets a management position.
ie VS operate with 2 crew and roster night stops to MIA, BA has 3 crew. with crew rest facility, (VS M.80 , BA M.84 shorter flight time.)
West Coast USA .VS roster a night stop, BA 48 hour Layover.
JNB/Cape Town VS night stop, BA 2 local night layover, and due to schedule timings, essentially a 5 day trip.
Constant 2 crew E Coast USA trips with 3 nights between is also very fatiguing, Most BA Long Range trips with extended crew, have a minimum 48 hr. layover.
Paxing All Over The World
I am SLF but have been doing so for 58 years and followed commercial aviation fairly closely. I have never worked for any airline related company. I have been SLF with VS since October 1986.
How much of the problem described in this thread happened after the take over by Delta? How big are their fingerprints on current day VS?
How much of the problem described in this thread happened after the take over by Delta? How big are their fingerprints on current day VS?
Cessnapete
not quite correct. JNB, CPT, LAX, SFO and LAS all 2 nights.
There is a 'brain drain'... how many is a matter of conjecture.
As for the new Head of Flight Crew, he will judged by his actions, he has only just taken up his post.
I'm fairly sure the Company are aware of the issues - how they solve them is also a matter of conjecture.
not quite correct. JNB, CPT, LAX, SFO and LAS all 2 nights.
There is a 'brain drain'... how many is a matter of conjecture.
As for the new Head of Flight Crew, he will judged by his actions, he has only just taken up his post.
I'm fairly sure the Company are aware of the issues - how they solve them is also a matter of conjecture.
Virgin Atlantic pilots consider strike over fatigue
Paxboy, can't match your length of service. I only did 43 years of which 39 was at the pointy end. What one sees here is current SOP(Standard Operating Procedure) and has been during my entire aviation career. Unless fully connected in all the accepted areas, one goes only so far. Real, appropriate talent available in the airline industry does not get into the controlling top-management. Never has. Never will.The result is what you see at VS and, probably, all over civil aviation.
Even got to be a member of the Travel" Lodge" to get my "Frequent user"- New Year deals !
Even got to be a member of the Travel" Lodge" to get my "Frequent user"- New Year deals !
Paxing All Over The World
Sadly, most corporate entities go through the standard cycle of innovation to complacency. Then they get taken over by the accountants.
It does not matter what the line of business is - they all follow the cycle. Round and round.
It does not matter what the line of business is - they all follow the cycle. Round and round.
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How come some office worker, who works maximum 8 hr days (or there is trouble), was able to make the law that it's alright for flight crew to work an 18 hr day, as long as there is an opportunity for inflight "rest" and the crew is “augmented" and "acclimatised"?
Was he the head of the committee which spent 24 months designing an acclimatisation table that can't work out the acclimatisation 66% of the time and leaves the result at "unknown"?
Lets imagine he or she has to work to their own rules.
Let's be kind, and start them at normal time, 8am. Straight off the bat, they will be doing a 13 hr day. If they'd just come off holiday and were a bit groggy still to match "unknown" acclimatisation status, they'd be in for an easier 12 hr day.
Except if the boss called and said, I'm extending your day a bit by sending you Fred and Bob. With two extra blokes in your office you can all do 17hrs straight as long as there's a bunk for one of you to kip in whilst the other two work.
Make sure you leave the hoover on all the time for some ambience. Oh, and there's a bit of a flap on today so I expect you to use your discretion and stay a couple of hours longer, there's a good chap.
When you're done, drag your bags down the road to a cheap hotel and make sure you're back here in 17hrs to do it all over again. After 168 hrs of this, you can take 36 hrs off. I know your other mates get 48hrs every 120 hrs but this is EASA, you know.
Seriously? How about standard labour law and 8 hour days?
I understand how things evolved in aviation, short flights at first didn't require rest, and as the aircraft became capable of longer flights, the crews had to be able to man them. But the moment the crew bunks were installed, there was the opportunity to go back to the 8 hr working day model that the labour law stipulates for every other worker. Work more than 8hrs, two crews. Period. No crew bunks, then after 8hrs land and change crews. Yes this is a bit simplistic and sure the system has to be tuned for shift work, but.... How in hell did it get to where we are today when it's legal for me to work in the aeroplane for 18 hrs and Mr EASA does 8 in his office?
Was he the head of the committee which spent 24 months designing an acclimatisation table that can't work out the acclimatisation 66% of the time and leaves the result at "unknown"?
Lets imagine he or she has to work to their own rules.
Let's be kind, and start them at normal time, 8am. Straight off the bat, they will be doing a 13 hr day. If they'd just come off holiday and were a bit groggy still to match "unknown" acclimatisation status, they'd be in for an easier 12 hr day.
Except if the boss called and said, I'm extending your day a bit by sending you Fred and Bob. With two extra blokes in your office you can all do 17hrs straight as long as there's a bunk for one of you to kip in whilst the other two work.
Make sure you leave the hoover on all the time for some ambience. Oh, and there's a bit of a flap on today so I expect you to use your discretion and stay a couple of hours longer, there's a good chap.
When you're done, drag your bags down the road to a cheap hotel and make sure you're back here in 17hrs to do it all over again. After 168 hrs of this, you can take 36 hrs off. I know your other mates get 48hrs every 120 hrs but this is EASA, you know.
Seriously? How about standard labour law and 8 hour days?
I understand how things evolved in aviation, short flights at first didn't require rest, and as the aircraft became capable of longer flights, the crews had to be able to man them. But the moment the crew bunks were installed, there was the opportunity to go back to the 8 hr working day model that the labour law stipulates for every other worker. Work more than 8hrs, two crews. Period. No crew bunks, then after 8hrs land and change crews. Yes this is a bit simplistic and sure the system has to be tuned for shift work, but.... How in hell did it get to where we are today when it's legal for me to work in the aeroplane for 18 hrs and Mr EASA does 8 in his office?
Virgin Atlantic pilots consider strike over fatigue
JG1. Agreed, totally.
Those who write the rules should then give it a try themselves. Assumes pilots write the rules. Often, not the case.
Complicity is a factor too. Wasn't long ago (Coovid crisis) chaps were "in order to put food on the table" accepting situations where they Dead Headed into a field and immediately operated out (!). Several claimed, on Pprune too, that the "crew rest facilities" in modern times were excellent and even enjoyable. Nothing wrong with boarding straight into your bunk nest and going to sleep immediately and then, some 10 hours later jumping into the hot seat and operating 10 hours back.
I also found the notion of extending operating hours because of a "relief" pilot to never be fully understood, Particularly by the pilot rostered as the "relief Pilot".. I was given the trial ops in a pretty classy carrier of operating AMS-Somewhere on West African Coast-AMS. Both First Officer thought all three of us should just share the flying three ways, there and back. Oh bless..
My report on return was that it could be done but I would not recommend it. I asked the Fleet Manager who authorised the OP to try it himself. I was shown the door with a "Ghoodah Morgan !",
Those who write the rules should then give it a try themselves. Assumes pilots write the rules. Often, not the case.
Complicity is a factor too. Wasn't long ago (Coovid crisis) chaps were "in order to put food on the table" accepting situations where they Dead Headed into a field and immediately operated out (!). Several claimed, on Pprune too, that the "crew rest facilities" in modern times were excellent and even enjoyable. Nothing wrong with boarding straight into your bunk nest and going to sleep immediately and then, some 10 hours later jumping into the hot seat and operating 10 hours back.
I also found the notion of extending operating hours because of a "relief" pilot to never be fully understood, Particularly by the pilot rostered as the "relief Pilot".. I was given the trial ops in a pretty classy carrier of operating AMS-Somewhere on West African Coast-AMS. Both First Officer thought all three of us should just share the flying three ways, there and back. Oh bless..
My report on return was that it could be done but I would not recommend it. I asked the Fleet Manager who authorised the OP to try it himself. I was shown the door with a "Ghoodah Morgan !",