Virgin Atlantic pilots consider strike over fatigue
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The CAA's priority is the continued prosperity of UK airlines. They have no interest in acting to ensure safe operations. So unless the Daily Mail presents them with a smoking gun (or a smoking hole) it's business as usual at the CAA.
Around 10 years ago the UK had a mature sensible FTL scheme. The regulations were formed over many years as a result of accidents, incidents and deaths where we promised the bereaved that we would learn from our past mistakes. Then one day we threw that ruleset in the bin in favour of a Pan-European system that bore no resemblance to either of the 'Gold Standards' of the UK or Germany.... All in the name of EU political expediency.
Around 10 years ago the UK had a mature sensible FTL scheme. The regulations were formed over many years as a result of accidents, incidents and deaths where we promised the bereaved that we would learn from our past mistakes. Then one day we threw that ruleset in the bin in favour of a Pan-European system that bore no resemblance to either of the 'Gold Standards' of the UK or Germany.... All in the name of EU political expediency.
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Absolutely. The new FTLs were waved in or nodded through by our own airlines, unions and the CAA. I never understood why there was not a general walk-out by UK crews over that.
I think that big money has nobbled the CAA, BALPA and all the airline Company Councils.
"Safety is our biggest concern"......Yeah, right.
.
Around 10 years ago the UK had a mature sensible FTL scheme. The regulations were formed over many years as a result of accidents, incidents and deaths where we promised the bereaved that we would learn from our past mistakes. Then one day we threw that ruleset in the bin in favour of a Pan-European system that bore no resemblance to either of the 'Gold Standards' of the UK or Germany.... All in the name of EU political expediency.
I think that big money has nobbled the CAA, BALPA and all the airline Company Councils.
"Safety is our biggest concern"......Yeah, right.
.
Last edited by Uplinker; 10th Aug 2023 at 05:35.
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Unfortunately when the British public see headlines like "Virgin pilots to strike over fatigue concerns" they start to switch off. It is the same as the rail unions striking over 'safety concerns'.... They don't really give a toss about safety as they can stop the train whenever a safety need arises. They are striking about members losing their jobs as the world changes. We no longer need train guards when tickets are checked at the barriers and no longer need ticket offices when 90%+ are purchased online. If an emergency arises onboard the train will continue to the next station where it can be dealt with accordingly. The British public recognise completely that the world is changing and unions are resisting that change. Unions need to recognise that banging the 'Safety' drum in the media in order to scare and influence public opinion is a strategy that has long since outlived it's usefulness.
Unfortunately airliners cannot just pull-over when the pilots can no longer stay awake.
I do recall a while ago that Virgin pilots were negotiating lifestyle improvements with their employer. The goal was to reduce time away from home by reducing slip-time downroute. When that means 5 trips a month instead of 4 it rather defeats the benefit to lifestyle. Whatever you give to an employer.... They will take it... And still come back for more. An ambitious manager who is only going to be in post for 2 years has no care for the consequences of his actions. Short term gains that trigger his bonus are his only concern.
Unfortunately airliners cannot just pull-over when the pilots can no longer stay awake.
I do recall a while ago that Virgin pilots were negotiating lifestyle improvements with their employer. The goal was to reduce time away from home by reducing slip-time downroute. When that means 5 trips a month instead of 4 it rather defeats the benefit to lifestyle. Whatever you give to an employer.... They will take it... And still come back for more. An ambitious manager who is only going to be in post for 2 years has no care for the consequences of his actions. Short term gains that trigger his bonus are his only concern.
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I regularly operate LON to Mexico, Costa Rica etc with just two pilots. Flight time is often 10-12 hours. Add report time and you can see it’s a long day out. These trips are 24 hours.
we do however get 3 local nights off after them.
regularly fall asleep on the fight home. File a report every time and nothing changes been doing it since EASA regs came in 10 (?) years ago.
we do however get 3 local nights off after them.
regularly fall asleep on the fight home. File a report every time and nothing changes been doing it since EASA regs came in 10 (?) years ago.
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I witnessed many times Virgin crews who had operated from London in LAX arriving in the hotel in Torrance late afternoon. I then saw them checking out again just over 24 hours later to operate the return leg and they never looked rested. IIRC didn't the regulations recommend avoiding rests periods between 18 and 30 hours?
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The CAA's priority is the continued prosperity of UK airlines. They have no interest in acting to ensure safe operations. So unless the Daily Mail presents them with a smoking gun (or a smoking hole) it's business as usual at the CAA.
Around 10 years ago the UK had a mature sensible FTL scheme. The regulations were formed over many years as a result of accidents, incidents and deaths where we promised the bereaved that we would learn from our past mistakes. Then one day we threw that ruleset in the bin in favour of a Pan-European system that bore no resemblance to either of the 'Gold Standards' of the UK or Germany.... All in the name of EU political expediency.
Around 10 years ago the UK had a mature sensible FTL scheme. The regulations were formed over many years as a result of accidents, incidents and deaths where we promised the bereaved that we would learn from our past mistakes. Then one day we threw that ruleset in the bin in favour of a Pan-European system that bore no resemblance to either of the 'Gold Standards' of the UK or Germany.... All in the name of EU political expediency.
The FTL hasn't changed much only the way the Airlines work crews to the max.....
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Twiglet1 I don't get your argument here.... Are you saying FTLs were better under the old CAP371 or better under EASA?
Before we all switched to EASA some EU countries had no FTL rules at all..... I suppose it is the inevitable consequence of having legislation drafted by a committee of 27 nations that agreement could not be reached on adopting one of the existing 'Gold Standards'. Instead we arrive at the average of nought and best!
I know British shorthaul rules suffered as a consequence of EASA with more conservative FDPs on earlier departures. OTOH a certain British LH operator ran rosters for one fleet with the new ruleset a few months before introduction and got a nasty shock. They quickly had to go out and recruit some more pilots.
Before we all switched to EASA some EU countries had no FTL rules at all..... I suppose it is the inevitable consequence of having legislation drafted by a committee of 27 nations that agreement could not be reached on adopting one of the existing 'Gold Standards'. Instead we arrive at the average of nought and best!
I know British shorthaul rules suffered as a consequence of EASA with more conservative FDPs on earlier departures. OTOH a certain British LH operator ran rosters for one fleet with the new ruleset a few months before introduction and got a nasty shock. They quickly had to go out and recruit some more pilots.
It’s swings and roundabouts when comparing CAP371 with EASA FTL’s. Losses and gains. You can still call fatigued prior to duty if you so feel. Additionally the Captain can reduce the duty period time below the tabulated standard and equally increase rest as he sees fit. It sure doesn’t resolve all problems of company excess but it helps when they continuously take the piss.
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EASA FTL is much better imho. The only protection missing from EASA FTL is days off but the few UK AOC that are now left have either agreements which are over and above or the working time directive. And if crews want to sell days off its much more easier. Its how airlines schedule their crews which is more of an issue - 24hrs in LAX gets a lot of sympathy from me.
EASA FTL is much better imho. The only protection missing from EASA FTL is days off but the few UK AOC that are now left have either agreements which are over and above or the working time directive. And if crews want to sell days off its much more easier. Its how airlines schedule their crews which is more of an issue - 24hrs in LAX gets a lot of sympathy from me.
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...
Before we all switched to EASA some EU countries had no FTL rules at all..... I suppose it is the inevitable consequence of having legislation drafted by a committee of 27 nations that agreement could not be reached on adopting one of the existing 'Gold Standards'. Instead we arrive at the average of nought and best!
...
Before we all switched to EASA some EU countries had no FTL rules at all..... I suppose it is the inevitable consequence of having legislation drafted by a committee of 27 nations that agreement could not be reached on adopting one of the existing 'Gold Standards'. Instead we arrive at the average of nought and best!
...
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Why should aircrews supplement the passenger's ticket prices or the CEOs pay packets by working poor Ts & Cs ?
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Unhappy aircrew
I have followed many threads on PPRuNe regarding the friction between flight crew and airline management.
Why is there this seeming lack of trust ? Pilots referring to managers as 'bean counters' and only looking at short term benefits. The pilots stating that fatigue is becoming a major safety issue, really ?
A recent thread compared plane and train unions citing 'safety issues' when really it had nothing to do with safety but just a bargaining chip to try and get the publics sympathy for what is really just wage and benefits negotiation.
I am a retired Master Mariner who served on British flag Very Large Crude Carriers (VLCC's), and then became an ocean freight logistics manager for a fleet of over deep sea 400 vessels.
In all my time at sea we never once used the 'safety' gimmick to try and obtain better conditions.
In fact in all my time at sea we officers never undertook industrial action. Similarly, there were no industrial disputes on our time chartered fleet.
Are airline pilots a superior breed that need to be mollycoddled, and always to be at the throats of their airlines?
Or are the airlines really that bad to work for?
What happened to mutual trust and appreciation ?
I don't know,! Can someone help me understand.?
Swiss Steve
Why is there this seeming lack of trust ? Pilots referring to managers as 'bean counters' and only looking at short term benefits. The pilots stating that fatigue is becoming a major safety issue, really ?
A recent thread compared plane and train unions citing 'safety issues' when really it had nothing to do with safety but just a bargaining chip to try and get the publics sympathy for what is really just wage and benefits negotiation.
I am a retired Master Mariner who served on British flag Very Large Crude Carriers (VLCC's), and then became an ocean freight logistics manager for a fleet of over deep sea 400 vessels.
In all my time at sea we never once used the 'safety' gimmick to try and obtain better conditions.
In fact in all my time at sea we officers never undertook industrial action. Similarly, there were no industrial disputes on our time chartered fleet.
Are airline pilots a superior breed that need to be mollycoddled, and always to be at the throats of their airlines?
Or are the airlines really that bad to work for?
What happened to mutual trust and appreciation ?
I don't know,! Can someone help me understand.?
Swiss Steve
Last edited by T28B; 21st Aug 2023 at 13:23. Reason: Format correction
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Steve: before a few more aviation professionals respond in greater detail, I'll point out to you two general points:
1. Safety isn't a gimmick.
2. One of the insidious aspects of fatigue is that it slowly erodes your perception, and your ability to respond to cues.
At the end of a long flight, or a day of multiple sectors flown, the phase of flight that you are in (approach and landing) is where the need to be at your best.
If your "edge" has been dulled from fatigue (there have been studies a plenty over the years on that single topic) the risks in that critical phase increases.
Beyond that: the cargo in the aluminum tube behind you is people. It is not Game Boys, automobiles, wheat, coal, or other stuff as it is tends to be in a ship. (Cruise lines excepted).
1. Safety isn't a gimmick.
2. One of the insidious aspects of fatigue is that it slowly erodes your perception, and your ability to respond to cues.
At the end of a long flight, or a day of multiple sectors flown, the phase of flight that you are in (approach and landing) is where the need to be at your best.
If your "edge" has been dulled from fatigue (there have been studies a plenty over the years on that single topic) the risks in that critical phase increases.
Beyond that: the cargo in the aluminum tube behind you is people. It is not Game Boys, automobiles, wheat, coal, or other stuff as it is tends to be in a ship. (Cruise lines excepted).
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Steve: before a few more aviation professionals respond in greater detail, I'll point out to you two general points:
1. Safety isn't a gimmick.
2. One of the insidious aspects of fatigue is that it slowly erodes your perception, and your ability to respond to cues.
At the end of a long flight, or a day of multiple sectors flown, the phase of flight that you are in (approach and landing) is where the need to be at your best.
If your "edge" has been dulled from fatigue (there have been studies a plenty over the years on that single topic) the risks in that critical phase increases.
Beyond that: the cargo in the aluminum tube behind you is people. It is not Game Boys, automobiles, wheat, coal, or other stuff as it is tends to be in a ship. (Cruise lines excepted).
1. Safety isn't a gimmick.
2. One of the insidious aspects of fatigue is that it slowly erodes your perception, and your ability to respond to cues.
At the end of a long flight, or a day of multiple sectors flown, the phase of flight that you are in (approach and landing) is where the need to be at your best.
If your "edge" has been dulled from fatigue (there have been studies a plenty over the years on that single topic) the risks in that critical phase increases.
Beyond that: the cargo in the aluminum tube behind you is people. It is not Game Boys, automobiles, wheat, coal, or other stuff as it is tends to be in a ship. (Cruise lines excepted).
I would also suggest that the fatigue experienced on a 2 or 3 week sailing is a bit different from doing 4-6 transatlantic flights with 2 pilots and no rest , apart from closing your eyes bolt upright in the pilots seat for 45 mins at a time.
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Maybe I'm mistaken...
But last time I checked, most aircraft move a lot faster than most boats. And there is the three dimensional aspect to be considered. Not to mention the hours in an 7500-8000 foot cabin pressure and the dry air.
If i properly understand boats, they can have an engine failure and they still will float quite readily. An aircraft with an engine failure has significant adverse yaw that i doubt most boats can match.
Just the fact that the captain of a boat can fully stand up and walk around a bit gives him a large advantage over most flight crew situations.
both hands up, I'd prefer most any aircraft over most any boat for crossing the Atlantic or Pacific.
If i properly understand boats, they can have an engine failure and they still will float quite readily. An aircraft with an engine failure has significant adverse yaw that i doubt most boats can match.
Just the fact that the captain of a boat can fully stand up and walk around a bit gives him a large advantage over most flight crew situations.
both hands up, I'd prefer most any aircraft over most any boat for crossing the Atlantic or Pacific.
I have followed many threads on PPRuNe regarding the friction between flight crew and airline management.
Why is there this seeming lack of trust ? Pilots referring to managers as 'bean counters' and only looking at short term benefits. The pilots stating that fatigue is becoming a major safety issue, really ?
A recent thread compared plane and train unions citing 'safety issues' when really it had nothing to do with safety but just a bargaining chip to try and get the publics sympathy for what is really just wage and benefits negotiation.
I am a retired Master Mariner who served on British flag Very Large Crude Carriers (VLCC's), and then became an ocean freight logistics manager for a fleet of over deep sea 400 vessels.
In all my time at sea we never once used the 'safety' gimmick to try and obtain better conditions.
In fact in all my time at sea we officers never undertook industrial action. Similarly, there were no industrial disputes on our time chartered fleet.
Are airline pilots a superior breed that need to be mollycoddled, and always to be at the throats of their airlines?
Or are the airlines really that bad to work for?
What happened to mutual trust and appreciation ?
I don't know,! Can someone help me understand.?
Swiss Steve
Why is there this seeming lack of trust ? Pilots referring to managers as 'bean counters' and only looking at short term benefits. The pilots stating that fatigue is becoming a major safety issue, really ?
A recent thread compared plane and train unions citing 'safety issues' when really it had nothing to do with safety but just a bargaining chip to try and get the publics sympathy for what is really just wage and benefits negotiation.
I am a retired Master Mariner who served on British flag Very Large Crude Carriers (VLCC's), and then became an ocean freight logistics manager for a fleet of over deep sea 400 vessels.
In all my time at sea we never once used the 'safety' gimmick to try and obtain better conditions.
In fact in all my time at sea we officers never undertook industrial action. Similarly, there were no industrial disputes on our time chartered fleet.
Are airline pilots a superior breed that need to be mollycoddled, and always to be at the throats of their airlines?
Or are the airlines really that bad to work for?
What happened to mutual trust and appreciation ?
I don't know,! Can someone help me understand.?
Swiss Steve