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DC Sonic Boom/Citation Down in VA

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DC Sonic Boom/Citation Down in VA

Old 13th Jun 2023, 21:12
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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First Amendment does not negate U.S. libel laws. Tabloids in U.S. are frequently sued for libel.
At least in the UK, a deceased person cannot be libeled, nor can the relatives or estate of a deceased person sue for libel. The reason being that Defamation is defined as an act or statement that damages one's reputation. The dead do not have reputations to damage (in the eyes of the law).
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Old 13th Jun 2023, 22:52
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EDLB
I assume a CVR was not installed, so the investigation will have not much information beside the two F16 visuals and ATC recordings.
I read a report claiming the NTSB was searching for the recorder; I was unable to confirm anything on the NTSB website.
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Old 13th Jun 2023, 23:39
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fly-by-Wife
At least in the UK, a deceased person cannot be libeled, nor can the relatives or estate of a deceased person sue for libel. The reason being that Defamation is defined as an act or statement that damages one's reputation. The dead do not have reputations to damage (in the eyes of the law).
Only prblem I see is it's a UK tabloids reporting on a US Accident so First Ammendment might not apply. The lawyers will get rich arguing the point
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Old 14th Jun 2023, 11:29
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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If a UK parented company is doing business in the US it is subject to the laws of that land, including libel actions.

It happens that The Sun newspaper USA has nothing to do with the Murdoch tabloid rag 'The Sun' which is owned by News International. The Sun USA was founded in 1936 as the 'Myrtle Beach News' and is owned bythe McClatchy Company of Myrtle Beach SC.
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Old 15th Jun 2023, 00:55
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MechEngr
On more modern aircraft are there design/regulatory mandates to override the throttles when the cabin pressure goes over 10,000 feet? It seems obvious enough. How many crashes would have been avoided by such a mechanism?
G550 if A/P engaged at FL400 or above, low cabin pressure warning, would turn left 90 degrees, descend at Vmo and level off at 15,000/250 kts.
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Old 15th Jun 2023, 10:15
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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The Airbus A350 is even smarter. An emergency descent autopilot function is available to the crew for use. When armed the squawk is set to 7700 and TCAS set to look down. The mode is initiated by the crew by selecting speedbrake. The target altitude auto-sets to FL100 or the safest altitude above the MOA from the EGPWS terrain database and the speed bug runs to Barber's Pole -5kts. The NAV initiates a 3nm right offset (presuming the aircraft is on a NAT track). At the target altitude the level off is completed automatically with the speed-target going to Green Dot.

If an imminent cabin pressure above 14,000' is detected the Emergency Descent autopilot system arms. If the procedure is not pilot initiated within 15 seconds the system triggers. The AP/FD engages (if not already) and the sequence above is carried out completely automatically. The mode will even take the appropriate action to a TCAS RAs in descent so it's pretty damn clever.
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Old 22nd Jun 2023, 14:37
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Preliminary report here

The last transmission from the aircraft was when it was passing through FL280, at 1325 hours. Three minutes later the pilot did not reply to a further ATC instruction, to level off at FL330. No FDR fitted, CVR not found yet.
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Old 26th Jun 2023, 05:16
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Potentially slow Decompression
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Old 26th Jun 2023, 12:39
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Red_giant
Potentially slow Decompression
Potentially a medical incapacitation or even a subtle fumes incapacitation to name but three possible causes. We understand everything from the crash site is completely destroyed so there is no evidence to learn from. Given that it is probable the cause will remain a mystery.

Here's an idea.... Aside from Helios (where there were several other factors involved), public transport aircraft don't usually suffer from pilot incapacitation due to subtle decompression (due 2 pilots & better alerting systems). Notwithstanding, to make them more robust a downlink of cabin altitude could be added to CPDLC to warn controllers of an impending situation. I hit some turbulence once on the NAT tracks in a 744 and the AP coped well with going up and down +/- 250'. Within moments of hitting the turbulence we got a CPDLC message from Gander requesting..... 'CONFIRM MAINTAINING FL360'. It was comforting to know that Big Brother was watching and Flight Safety was enhanced.

The frequency of decompression accidents is very much higher in the bizjet community, even more so considering the smaller number of flights compared to commercial. As a stop-gap perhaps mandate modified transponders that have their own integral baro capsule. They could be rigged to squawk (say) 7400 in the event of cabin altitude above 14,000 feet. That might save the occasional single pilot 'Zombie' accident. It would certainly alert ATC to the possibility of an unguided aircraft they would need to clear other traffic away from.

Anyone remember the call from ATC... 'Oxygen! Oxygen! Oxygen! '
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Old 26th Jun 2023, 16:28
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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That, Magplug, is an extremely sensible idea. I can see no reason why it should not be adopted (not very expensive) and, in due course, mandated. It certainly might very well have saved Helios and all those poor souls on board. A very loud audio repeater on the flight deck could easily be incorporated - not everyone passes out fully at the same time and at Helios there was evidence to suggest that at least one cabin crew was on portable oxygen. The ATC forward knowledge aspect is also very relevant.
Well done sir / madam for posting one of the very few sensible comments / suggestions seen on PPRuNE in quite a while. Anyone see any flaws with Magplug's reasoning - or indeed have any other forward thinking sensible & practical ideas??

Last edited by Gizm0; 26th Jun 2023 at 17:18. Reason: political correctness.....
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Old 26th Jun 2023, 16:50
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gizm0
not very expensive
How much do you think it would cost ?
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Old 26th Jun 2023, 17:15
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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I have no idea Dave - and I am not going to quote the usual phrase of "if you think .... then try an accident". But when you consider that ATC can now see (for example) the preset altitude and the actual pressure setting used (+ a myriad of other stuff) on their screens I am sure the boffins could work something out without it being prohibitive. Cabin altitude is already a recorded parameter on virtually all modern FDRs. And when you consider how much biz jet owners are willing to spend on their expensive kit then such a safety related item would be relative peanuts. Particularly if it was either mandated or would attract a discount in insurance premiums - like many other safety related options do. Think of the days before OFDM was mandated (or GPWS or TCAS or .........).
But what are the general thoughts on Magplug's idea?

Last edited by Gizm0; 26th Jun 2023 at 17:17. Reason: Spelling
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Old 26th Jun 2023, 22:05
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Many GPS navigators on the market offer an emergency automatic landing capability. It's simple enough to add an altitude sensor open to the cabin that would trigger an automatic landing at a couple thousand feet over where the masks automatically deploy. That would give the crew time to get their act together before the automatics take over.

Agree squawking 7400 or such would help ATC.
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Old 27th Jun 2023, 09:15
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gizm0
And when you consider how much biz jet owners are willing to spend on their expensive kit then such a safety related item would be relative peanuts.
As has already been discussed... most bizjet owners are successful business people who are not enthusiasts of 'splashing the cash' on equipment (or extra pilots) where they are not mandated. It is an unfortunate reality of both private and commercial aviation that money is only spent on the very minimum levels required by law. (Just as carefully researched maximum FTLs immediately become the new rostering target.)

Last edited by Magplug; 27th Jun 2023 at 09:17. Reason: Can't spell!
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Old 27th Jun 2023, 13:54
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Salute!

I am surprised nobody has mentioned monitorng the "single pilot" as well as the plane. I realize the SLF may not be aviators and would be fairly helpless if the pilot was suddenly incapacitated, but several fairly cheap devices are available if the pilot is dozing off or still can communicate.

The ring I wear for a breathing disorder (COPD) got rave reviews from private pilots flying out west in high terrain. It uses bluetooth to talk with my iPhone on its continuous mode if I wish, but I get alerts when it vibrates fairly strong with or without continuous comm. The pilot reviewers say it tells them when they need supplemental oxygen if their oxygen saturation gets to a specific level, the FAA says - 92% or so, if I remember. The thing also also monitors pulse rate and records for up to 10 hours so you can reconstruct your history later.

Gums sends...
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Old 27th Jun 2023, 18:11
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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I have to admit that the B747s 'Pilot Response' warning woke me a few times. With your young colleague on 'controlled rest' in the other seat and the other in the bunk it is rather soporific just staring at empty sky at 04:00 on the body clock. FOs always seemed to sleep about 20 hours a day..... is that a thing?

The Helios aircraft was presumed to have left the KEA hold after overflying LGAV as a result of manual intervention on the flight deck. This was supported by the F16 pilot's observations. There was a steward on the crew with a little flying experience but clearly a 737 with one engine already out was a little bit too much to handle.... (My memories of the 737 recall an absolute trim-pig). The chances of any SLF being able to find the field, let alone the runway are slim to nil.
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Old 27th Jun 2023, 19:02
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Magplug
I have to admit that the B747s 'Pilot Response' warning woke me a few times. With your young colleague on 'controlled rest' in the other seat and the other in the bunk it is rather soporific just staring at empty sky at 04:00 on the body clock. FOs always seemed to sleep about 20 hours a day..... is that a thing?

The Helios aircraft was presumed to have left the KEA hold after overflying LGAV as a result of manual intervention on the flight deck. This was supported by the F16 pilot's observations. There was a steward on the crew with a little flying experience but clearly a 737 with one engine already out was a little bit too much to handle.... (My memories of the 737 recall an absolute trim-pig). The chances of any SLF being able to find the field, let alone the runway are slim to nil.
I think he had a CPL
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Old 28th Jun 2023, 11:08
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Timmy Tomkins You are correct. From the Helios accident report:-

​​​​Cabin Attendant number four (age 25) also held a UK Commercial Pilot License (JAR CPL A/IR) with an issue date of 2 October 2003, and valid to 1 October 2008. His JAA Class 1 Medical Certificate was valid from 15 July 2005 to 17 July 2006.​​​
The accident occurred on 14th August 2005 some 22 months after he gained his CPL. He therefore had some twin prop experience and had passed an IR. I don't recall the job climate at the time but clearly he was still working as cabin crew 2 years after becoming employable as a pilot. He was keeping his medical up to date so presumably still job-hunting.

Notwithstanding his experience..... Helios' last RT communication was at 0620 passing FL290 for 340. The F16 pilot later witnessed a person entering the FD at 0818, some 2 hours later. That's a long time to be waiting to intervene.
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