Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Air France crew fighting

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Air France crew fighting

Old 31st Aug 2022, 11:39
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Marlow (mostly)
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
For anyone wanting to look into the issue of "cultural influences" on airline safety I posted a lengthy discussion on my PiCMA site. I'd be interested in hearing comments on what I say there.
"Culture" - pilots, national and airline. | PicMA
slast is online now  
Old 31st Aug 2022, 17:05
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In a van down by the river
Posts: 691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Pretty obvious which Delta flight that is - bigger masking blocks ?
Fonsini is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2022, 17:52
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Indeed Flying Coyote, always the same good old basic French bashing coming back , which is now left on my the mods as it raises traffic (and revenue ). Was a bit different when the site was moderated by its founder, Danny , but we have to accept it is a commercial site now and endure this.,. That said, Mods, when I see posts like this one here :
It indicate clearly that the poster is not a Professional pilot and making a pure racist remark, which is not really acceptable in todays 'world.
Oh dear ATC, you’ve not done very well with that post have you?! Firstly, I am a Professional pilot and secondly, how on earth can you come up with that being a racist remark? I’ve actually spent a considerable time out there working in the industry hence my reference to the Congo. Nothing racist about a country having very poor standards and Professionalism both on and off the flight deck.

Maybe it’s time you frequented another forum if it’s really as bad as you say it is or go and grab another beer and chill!
Atlantic Explorer is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2022, 00:54
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: US
Age: 64
Posts: 505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Fonsini View Post
Pretty obvious which Delta flight that is - bigger masking blocks ?
It’s a correct ship number for a Delta flight. Delta however never conducts new hire training with a LCA on the jumpseat. New hires are added to the LCA’s line and he occupies a control seat. Seems odd unless the CA was receiving a line check and the new hire had already completed all training and was on a regular trip.
Sailvi767 is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2022, 01:39
  #45 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Not commuting home
Age: 44
Posts: 4,036
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Might explain the anxiety of the F/O to get the call perfectly right on all occasions. Also possibly a hoax.
FlightDetent is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2022, 13:33
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In a van down by the river
Posts: 691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sailvi767 View Post
It’s a correct ship number for a Delta flight. Delta however never conducts new hire training with a LCA on the jumpseat. New hires are added to the LCA’s line and he occupies a control seat. Seems odd unless the CA was receiving a line check and the new hire had already completed all training and was on a regular trip.
Final LCA check ride sign-off on a scheduled service perhaps ? If so I’m guessing that the FO inviting the CA to consume a bag of phalluses resulted in a “less than satisfactory” rating ??
Fonsini is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2022, 19:02
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by A320LGW View Post
Pilots in general, no, Air France and its pilots though? I have always noticed something very different.
mostly seen by French people as « overpaid glorified bus drivers, always on strike ». Nothing even close to worshipping…
fab777 is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2022, 23:18
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: germany
Age: 57
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
inbalance is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2022, 23:35
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 874
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jet Jockey A4 View Post
I find this hard to believe but there is another report out there claiming an Air France crew that was waiting to takeoff with an Airbus 350 was cleared to position and then cleared for takeoff and added takeoff power only to realize that one of its engines was still shutdown... If true then this incredible even for Air France!

Unfortunately you must subscribe to read the article.

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...ls-928608.html
This link should give you the text: http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...trip=1&vwsrc=0
steamchicken is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2022, 22:08
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: ZRH
Age: 59
Posts: 567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by skiver View Post

I’m a committed Francophile but I won’t let any of my family fly with Air France… you don’t have to dig deep to find an almost continuous list of incidents.
Jup, good decision. I've made that long ago and fully agree with you.

AN2 Driver is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2022, 00:47
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Spain and Gibraltar
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Weren't AF pilots allowed a red wine allowance some years back, similar to the British navy's rum ration?
Nil by mouth is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2022, 09:53
  #52 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 1,863
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by slast View Post
For anyone wanting to look into the issue of "cultural influences" on airline safety I posted a lengthy discussion on my PiCMA site. I'd be interested in hearing comments on what I say there.
"Culture" - pilots, national and airline. | PicMA
Gert Hofsteade's "Cultures Consequences" works are an interesting read on the subject. His study gives some hints as to what may be interesting in a cohort, however, there are some hard truths in that as well; on occasions, what may be seen as a desirable trait turns up to make life miserable.

A close look into our own glass houses is worthwhile pre-launch of stones and other objects. On occasions the events within a culturally disctinct group doesn't turn out as expected, people is people.
fdr is online now  
Old 5th Sep 2022, 10:13
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Marlow (mostly)
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
FDR, I guess you saw my brief references to Hofstede's work then? I don't have the originals - I just checked and as the one you mention is £100 probably won't in the near future unfortunately. If you have any comments (especially in the light of 1st sentence, 2nd paragraph) please PM me. Or were you referring to the tone of a few of the other posts?

Last edited by slast; 5th Sep 2022 at 10:31.
slast is online now  
Old 20th Sep 2022, 06:32
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Old Carthusian View Post
I had thought that Air France had addressed their pilot culture issues but it seems that the problem is much more insidious. They've already had one fatal accident because of this and really need to get a grip otherwise there will be more.
AF never had a fatal accident because of Pilot Culture issues. Where do you get that nonsense from ?!
crjo is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2022, 06:35
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Get your facts straight.
AF actually pioneered ATQP and now EBT in Europe…
crjo is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2022, 09:39
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: The land of the Rising Sun
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by crjo View Post
AF never had a fatal accident because of Pilot Culture issues. Where do you get that nonsense from ?!
AF447
Old Carthusian is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2022, 09:49
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Uka Duka
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Old Carthusian View Post
AF447
I would not say that was a cultural issue but rather gross incompetence by all in the cockpit.

Flight 548 had culture as major causal factor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...ays_Flight_548
Auxtank is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2022, 10:34
  #58 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 72
Posts: 3,180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Auxtank View Post
I would not say that was a cultural issue but rather gross incompetence by all in the cockpit.

Flight 548 had culture as major causal factor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...ays_Flight_548
A fascinating read, I had forgotten that one, thanks for the link Auxtank , put things back into perspective and shows to how far we have advanced since that time..
But AF also had a cultural problem , identified and attempted to be corrected may times. After AF447 athings did change , except for the 5 or 10% at the top that still think that their judgements are better that the SOPs , and, for instance, a management that (still apparently) supports modifying the Manufacturers Flight manuals possibly under the pressure of those same 5-10%.
The French BEA was for many years subject to pressures from the "gang of 3 " ( DGAC, AF and Airbus) in minimizing incidents where they were involved , and what has changed recently in their increased independence and willingness to publish critical reports , that sometimes get media attention . Will it change things ? No sure, cultural changes takes generations to take effect,. The British and the US started to address this earlier and are far better at this , but recent incidents and accidents show that no-one is immune to a bad culture ..
ATC Watcher is online now  
Old 20th Sep 2022, 11:08
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Nil by mouth View Post
Weren't AF pilots allowed a red wine allowance some years back, similar to the British navy's rum ration?
yes, in 1952.
fab777 is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2022, 13:01
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: The land of the Rising Sun
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
AF447 was very much a culturally related accident. Yes, certainly incompetence played it's part but only because the prevailing pilot culture in Air France had allowed it to develop to such a significant degree. Air France are the latest in a line of airlines which have suffered from pilot culture becoming toxic and dangerous. The phenomenon can be first identified with Pan Am - the 'Clipper Skipper'. Other airlines that have been affected have been Korean Airlines (a culture based on seniority and deference to ex-military captains) and China Airlines. In all cases this has led to fatal accidents and has been characterized by an arrogance and disregard of sensible procedure and professionalism. A further significant element is the willingness to tolerate and protect individuals who have deficient skillsets because they fit in with the toxic culture. Korean and China Airlines seem to have taken steps to rectify the situation but Pan Am never did and Air France seem to be struggling to find solutions.
A note on culture - it is not just perceived national characteristics but how individuals are expected to act and behave in a specific group environment. It can be influenced by many factors and can be either positive, neutral or destructive.
Old Carthusian is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.