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Air France crew fighting

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Air France crew fighting

Old 28th Aug 2022, 12:08
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Air France crew fighting

https://www.thedailybeast.com/two-ai...-mid-air-fight

https://www.lepoint.fr/insolite/air-...2487514_48.php

Any update about what happened ?
Le Point magazine indicates it was a flight from Paris to Geneva, in which in the cockpit one crew member punched the other, later he said he just slapped him, and the two grabbed each other in the neck and started a brawl. Screams coming from the deck alerted the cabin crew. This happened during the initial climb. No other info.

French media refers to a report published from French BEA, but I did not find anything in their site:

https://bea.aero/en/

Last edited by markkal; 28th Aug 2022 at 12:18.
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 17:56
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I understand the article refers to a larger investigation from BEA about multiple incidents. Could not find the source either.
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 21:09
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Air France Pilots Fight with Each Other During Climb

Two Air France pilots were suspended after coming to blows in the cockpit of an Airbus jetliner during a flight between Geneva and Paris, the latest safety issue to plague the airline. In the June incident, a dispute between the pilot and co-pilot turned physical shortly after takeoff as the plane gained altitude, with the men taking each other by the collars after one possibly hit or slapped the other, according to the newspaper report. Cabin personnel heard noise in the cockpit, intervened and one member spent the rest of the flight in the flight deck, La Tribune said.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-cockpit-brawl

For a western European flag carrier, Air France seems to be having too many safety and human related issues.
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 23:11
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Originally Posted by Skywards747 View Post
Two Air France pilots were suspended after coming to blows in the cockpit of an Airbus jetliner during a flight between Geneva and Paris, the latest safety issue to plague the airline. In the June incident, a dispute between the pilot and co-pilot turned physical shortly after takeoff as the plane gained altitude, with the men taking each other by the collars after one possibly hit or slapped the other, according to the newspaper report. Cabin personnel heard noise in the cockpit, intervened and one member spent the rest of the flight in the flight deck, La Tribune said.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-cockpit-brawl

For a western European flag carrier, Air France seems to be having too many safety and human related issues.
Far too many and this is nothing new either, its been going on for decades with them. Is it arrogance? They are fairly worshipped by the general population there.
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 23:16
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The flight back from Geneva to Paris must have been epic in the cockpit, unless they rushed a replacement crew.
Knowing Air France and their very powerful unions, the crew will be suspended and then reinstated without any loss of salary, never to be allowed to fly together again.
BEA should be really embarassed, hence the lack of information. It would be interesting to hear the cockpit communications....Circulez, il n'y a rien a voir .. as the french say...
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 00:06
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I had thought that Air France had addressed their pilot culture issues but it seems that the problem is much more insidious. They've already had one fatal accident because of this and really need to get a grip otherwise there will be more.
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 05:47
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Perhaps the CRM "Captain, you must listen" didn't quite get the job done.
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 07:31
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A "violent argument" in the cockpit may have led to Britain's deadliest air accident of all time.

Since this event took place about an hour-and-a-half before take-off ...
Yet again, the Daily Mirror demonstrates its incisive grasp of the aviation world.
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 08:15
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Originally Posted by zambonidriver View Post
I understand the article refers to a larger investigation from BEA about multiple incidents. Could not find the source either.
https://www.theguardian.com/business...w-to-intervene

News of the fight emerged after France’s air investigation agency, BEA, issued a report on Wednesday saying that some Air France pilots lack rigour in respecting procedures during safety incidents.
I’m a committed Francophile but I won’t let any of my family fly with Air France… you don’t have to dig deep to find an almost continuous list of incidents.

Last edited by skiver; 29th Aug 2022 at 17:10. Reason: Typo
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 09:01
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By source I meant the report the Guardian and other newspaper based their article on...

First order of action in such matters.


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Old 29th Aug 2022, 09:43
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Well, at least they didnít wrestle with each other through the controls, like the AF 777 crew going into Paris.

I think this kind of incident could have happened anywhere with people of any nationality. At the same time, AF give the impression that they donít learn from their mistakes (or think they canít make them) as the training feedback loop appears not to be present. Most other European majors have moved on to things like ATQP, LOE, EBT, etc. and it makes you wonder if this is true at AF? I have serious reservations about flying with them.
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 11:43
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Originally Posted by zambonidriver View Post
I understand the article refers to a larger investigation from BEA about multiple incidents. Could not find the source either.
The fuel leak incident report is on the BEA website, findable with the search facility.

I haven't seen anything that refers to the June fisticuffs event being the subject of a BEA investigation.
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 12:02
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I thought cabin crew could not access the flight deck once door was closed?
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 12:30
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According to this press report the co-pilot "refused to follow instructions".

https://www.laprovence.com/actu/en-d...e-cockpit.html
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 13:30
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I do not think that this could have happened at any airline. Air France has an increasingly long list of incidents and one at least in recent years terrible accident where human factors played a large role. The lack of personal discipline in this instance is appalling. Try flying for one of the well known expatriate airlines particularly the much vilified (quite reasonably) Middle Eastern variety and having a mid air punch up: you will be out of the door in a tres rapide fashion. Possibly our pilot comrades in AF are a little too over indulged and precious and rampant egoism is tolerated. This is disturbing and it would appear that a little humility combined with a CRM reset is required within la belle France national carrier.
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 15:24
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Originally Posted by A320LGW View Post
They are fairly worshipped by the general population there.
I don't see from my view of the French landscape/newscape that pilots are viewed any differently from the way they are in the UK i.e. nothing exceptional.
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 15:34
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Originally Posted by olster View Post
I do not think that this could have happened at any airline. Air France has an increasingly long list of incidents and one at least in recent years terrible accident where human factors played a large role. The lack of personal discipline in this instance is appalling. Try flying for one of the well known expatriate airlines particularly the much vilified ( quite reasonably) Middle Eastern variety and having a mid air punch up: you will be out of the door in a tres rapide fashion. Possibly our pilot comrades in AF are a little too over indulged and precious and rampant egoism is tolerated. This is disturbing and it would appear that a little humility combined with a CRM reset is required within la belle France national carrier.
___________________

I completely agree with your points. Things have not changed over many years. Their arrogant behaviour witnessed by UK crews laying over in the far east.... was unbelievable. When some came to us to be trained or examined there was always the issue of attitude to be resolved.
And it was not.
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 16:02
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I know of a few ATOs which are refusing to train French students due to past experiences with their attitudes.
Something must be in the water.
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 16:33
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Anyone who has worked with French pilots for years would not be surprised. Not all of them by any means ... but far too many. Most alarmingly, the preening arrogance switches to a complete lack of resilience when the proverbial hits the rotatables. We had a chap, utter PITA, until things went wrong, then he would burst into tears every time!! (the French Navy and air force pilots were a delight through, so it can be done).
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 16:48
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Unbelievable! Oh well, that’s them definitely on my no fly list now. You would expect behaviour and Professionalism like this in the Congo or such like, but a European Flag carrier?!!
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