BA CityFlyer driver jailed for dodgy logbook
THE FAKE REFERENCE - C was unable to get a reference from his previous Corporate Jet company he worked for as in their words, "he was not an employee, only a contractor". Therefore C wrote his own reference from his own company and signed it in someone else's name. The actual information was not false. Charge no. 4
THE FAKE CERTIFICATE - C did a command course with his previous company. The certificate was lost and it was replicated to the best of his knowledge albeit the company and dates were wrong. Even though the core information was correct, eg he had passed a Command Course, because it was not the original document, it was fraud, even though he had completed a Command course. Charge 5
Is it time for a discussion about integrity, honesty, trust, etc. before you find the chap doing your vasectomy gained his surgical qualifications with Kwik-Fit?
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Wow, a lot of puritans here.If things are what Fahrenheit alleges, I have sympathy. How many of those reading this thread would not have done the same thing in most of the instances mentioned. Maybe not a fake reference no, much of the other stuff… be honest now. Wasn’t all that unreasonable, wasn’t with ill-intent.
And who here hasn’t messed up the APU/GPU transfer? Anybody with a fair amount of hours who says they haven’t, is a big fat liar!
Not saying this account of Fahrenheit was all there was to it, but if it was…I’d be happy to shrug my shoulders and move on. Not the CAA clearly.
And pilotmike: that post is really bad taste.
And who here hasn’t messed up the APU/GPU transfer? Anybody with a fair amount of hours who says they haven’t, is a big fat liar!
Not saying this account of Fahrenheit was all there was to it, but if it was…I’d be happy to shrug my shoulders and move on. Not the CAA clearly.
And pilotmike: that post is really bad taste.
Last edited by Bora Bora; 11th Jul 2023 at 12:13.
THE TRUE STORY
The guy was grassed up.
I believe the CAA used their power to make an example of someone and deflect any accountability or responsibility in the industry that is known and rifled with 'finding a way'. Whether its the so-called 'feedback' from all the ATPL schools, yes where all the students are knowingly given the question bank and answers to all the ATPL questions. Does that mean all pilots are criminals and fraudsters from the outset for knowingly cheating ? Who hasn't 'Parker Penned' their logbook even if by 1 flight or 1 hour. Its still a crime. Is everyone's logbook fully accounted for and perfectly correct - if not its still a crime. Apparently 'everyone' glorifies their CV and application form right according to legal teams - Wrong, that's still a crime too, it doesn't matter how many people do it, it's still a fraudulent crime, according to the law and the CAA.
So what happened. C had 10 years of experience in the corporate jet world, covering, Europe, the Middle East, Eastern Europe, Africa and North Atlantic. Qualified as a Captain but left as there were no left seat jobs, as in passed his command line check as well as command ground course. BA Cityflyer were advertising for F O jobs that required 500 hours. He applied, passed the sim check, was offered the job. He did not have the aircraft weight behind him when asked about Capt opportunities but they said if he could pass the left seat sim check which was with a BA 777 Captain, then he could have the left seat job and they would waiver the weight restriction and if he failed he could still have the FO job. Who wouldn't take that opportunity? So he did, passed with flying colours, got the job, passed line training and signed off with, "he'll be an asset to the company" ! So yes, he applied for a First Officer and it was BACF that put him forward to DEC.
The button - he pressed was the transfer of APU to GPU on an Embrarer EJET, what they didn't tell you is the GPU malfunctioned and the lights went out in the Cabin for a few seconds, then the power was transferred back to APU. All this was during a bright sunny day in Zurich. The CAA's barrister reported to the judge, "the plane plunged into darkness."
THE LOGBOOK - During the internal investigation after the whistle blower, BACF told C to remove all his PICUS P1 hours saying they don't count as P1 hours. This was charge 1 - Knowingly Altering the logbook). A few weeks later C was told to put them back after BACF admitted that the hours could be used after all towards P1 hours. As he couldnt exactly remember 1000 odd flights, the equivalent hours were re-entered into the logbook to the best of his knowledge. This was charge no.2- Knowingly falsyfying flights, NOW because it was his hand that altered and entered the logbook entries, it was a fraudulent crime even though he was told to do it by the Head of Flight Operations, a training Capt himself. During that process, Excel, Data, Sort muddled up the logbook where the data sort range scrolled off the screen and was omitted from the sort process. It didn't seem to matter in court, but that is what led to the Stobart charge, them claiming the logbook was incorrect even though he had done a year as Captain at BACF. Charge no. 3
THE FAKE REFERENCE - C was unable to get a reference from his previous Corporate Jet company he worked for as in their words, "he was not an employee, only a contractor". Therefore C wrote his own reference from his own company and signed it in someone else's name. The actual information was not false. Charge no. 4
THE APPLICATION -. Some background first. Some airlines applications have columns asking for Captain/Command/PIC hours to include P1, PICUS, SPIC, PIC hours all in the same box/category. Ryanair for example.
Because C put all his P1 hours in one box like the example above, he was told that, that was the false representation. (3 month later BA now advertises their hour requirement "excluding PICUS hours")
THE FAKE CERTIFICATE - C did a command course with his previous company. The certificate was lost and it was replicated to the best of his knowledge albeit the company and dates were wrong. Even though the core information was correct, eg he had passed a Command Course, because it was not the original document, it was fraud, even though he had completed a Command course. Charge 5
So there it is folks. C's license was revoked forever and he will never fly again or get an airside pass. On top of that, all the tabloids and press published the story to make new and what the CAA told them, not how it was, all to make the news without all the facts. He has to live with that too, and then the CAA's Investigation Officer did a documentary on the BBC with their somewhat glorified and twisted version of the story to make them look good.
Fake it until you make it is a load of nonsense, it should be fake it until your caught or banged up if you think its worth the risk.
Now with the facts you can now make your own conclusions. It doesn't change what's happened, he has had the ultimate punishment of being locked up and never to fly again. "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.” Or criticise only if you have never done any wrong, even if its just the case you havent been found out yet or caught, because that doesnt count. Even infidelity down route...! LOL
The guy was grassed up.
I believe the CAA used their power to make an example of someone and deflect any accountability or responsibility in the industry that is known and rifled with 'finding a way'. Whether its the so-called 'feedback' from all the ATPL schools, yes where all the students are knowingly given the question bank and answers to all the ATPL questions. Does that mean all pilots are criminals and fraudsters from the outset for knowingly cheating ? Who hasn't 'Parker Penned' their logbook even if by 1 flight or 1 hour. Its still a crime. Is everyone's logbook fully accounted for and perfectly correct - if not its still a crime. Apparently 'everyone' glorifies their CV and application form right according to legal teams - Wrong, that's still a crime too, it doesn't matter how many people do it, it's still a fraudulent crime, according to the law and the CAA.
So what happened. C had 10 years of experience in the corporate jet world, covering, Europe, the Middle East, Eastern Europe, Africa and North Atlantic. Qualified as a Captain but left as there were no left seat jobs, as in passed his command line check as well as command ground course. BA Cityflyer were advertising for F O jobs that required 500 hours. He applied, passed the sim check, was offered the job. He did not have the aircraft weight behind him when asked about Capt opportunities but they said if he could pass the left seat sim check which was with a BA 777 Captain, then he could have the left seat job and they would waiver the weight restriction and if he failed he could still have the FO job. Who wouldn't take that opportunity? So he did, passed with flying colours, got the job, passed line training and signed off with, "he'll be an asset to the company" ! So yes, he applied for a First Officer and it was BACF that put him forward to DEC.
The button - he pressed was the transfer of APU to GPU on an Embrarer EJET, what they didn't tell you is the GPU malfunctioned and the lights went out in the Cabin for a few seconds, then the power was transferred back to APU. All this was during a bright sunny day in Zurich. The CAA's barrister reported to the judge, "the plane plunged into darkness."
THE LOGBOOK - During the internal investigation after the whistle blower, BACF told C to remove all his PICUS P1 hours saying they don't count as P1 hours. This was charge 1 - Knowingly Altering the logbook). A few weeks later C was told to put them back after BACF admitted that the hours could be used after all towards P1 hours. As he couldnt exactly remember 1000 odd flights, the equivalent hours were re-entered into the logbook to the best of his knowledge. This was charge no.2- Knowingly falsyfying flights, NOW because it was his hand that altered and entered the logbook entries, it was a fraudulent crime even though he was told to do it by the Head of Flight Operations, a training Capt himself. During that process, Excel, Data, Sort muddled up the logbook where the data sort range scrolled off the screen and was omitted from the sort process. It didn't seem to matter in court, but that is what led to the Stobart charge, them claiming the logbook was incorrect even though he had done a year as Captain at BACF. Charge no. 3
THE FAKE REFERENCE - C was unable to get a reference from his previous Corporate Jet company he worked for as in their words, "he was not an employee, only a contractor". Therefore C wrote his own reference from his own company and signed it in someone else's name. The actual information was not false. Charge no. 4
THE APPLICATION -. Some background first. Some airlines applications have columns asking for Captain/Command/PIC hours to include P1, PICUS, SPIC, PIC hours all in the same box/category. Ryanair for example.
Because C put all his P1 hours in one box like the example above, he was told that, that was the false representation. (3 month later BA now advertises their hour requirement "excluding PICUS hours")
THE FAKE CERTIFICATE - C did a command course with his previous company. The certificate was lost and it was replicated to the best of his knowledge albeit the company and dates were wrong. Even though the core information was correct, eg he had passed a Command Course, because it was not the original document, it was fraud, even though he had completed a Command course. Charge 5
So there it is folks. C's license was revoked forever and he will never fly again or get an airside pass. On top of that, all the tabloids and press published the story to make new and what the CAA told them, not how it was, all to make the news without all the facts. He has to live with that too, and then the CAA's Investigation Officer did a documentary on the BBC with their somewhat glorified and twisted version of the story to make them look good.
Fake it until you make it is a load of nonsense, it should be fake it until your caught or banged up if you think its worth the risk.
Now with the facts you can now make your own conclusions. It doesn't change what's happened, he has had the ultimate punishment of being locked up and never to fly again. "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.” Or criticise only if you have never done any wrong, even if its just the case you havent been found out yet or caught, because that doesnt count. Even infidelity down route...! LOL
This “true” version sounds like it’s had several coats of varnish. The poor chap purportedly has an excuse for everything, but the fake reference and command cert are what stand out for me as marking him out as a dead set fraudster - and I’ve had the dubious honour to act for plenty of his ilk.
Erm, yet the judge gave him 12 months in the bin? If this were truly the factual basis for sentence, then there’s no way he would have gone in.
This “true” version sounds like it’s had several coats of varnish. The poor chap purportedly has an excuse for everything, but the fake reference and command cert are what stand out for me as marking him out as a dead set fraudster - and I’ve had the dubious honour to act for plenty of his ilk.
This “true” version sounds like it’s had several coats of varnish. The poor chap purportedly has an excuse for everything, but the fake reference and command cert are what stand out for me as marking him out as a dead set fraudster - and I’ve had the dubious honour to act for plenty of his ilk.
I was off to the Sim for my six monthly check ride on the other other side of the world, while in the front galley talking to the crew, the captain appeared from the cockpit from the BA 320 for a "comfort break", the crew pointed to me and said "he's also crew but flys helicopters". The captain said hello and we had a little chat. I said, "where did you learn to fly, OAT at Oxford ?" No no he protested, "I'm ex RAF" while looking down his nose at me. I pressed further and asked what he flew in the RAF, fighter, transport ? None of these, University Air Squadron !!!!!!! God give me strength
I was off to the Sim for my six monthly check ride on the other other side of the world, while in the front galley talking to the crew, the captain appeared from the cockpit from the BA 320 for a "comfort break", the crew pointed to me and said "he's also crew but flys helicopters". The captain said hello and we had a little chat. I said, "where did you learn to fly, OAT at Oxford ?" No no he protested, "I'm ex RAF" while looking down his nose at me. I pressed further and asked what he flew in the RAF, fighter, transport ? None of these, University Air Squadron !!!!!!! God give me strength
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C got caught. Probably thousands like him out there. Some way more competent than their "legit" peers, some probably not. I guarantee each and every one of us knows someone who is not too dissimilar. Think about the pressure one is under to secure a job every time a daft Middle Eastern or Asian airline asks for a reference with a specific wording. Airline no longer around? Ummm.
Some years ago, a relatively large UK Tour Operator airline went bust, lets just say that a lot of references where written by friends for friends (after losing their jobs). What of that?
The industry is broken, regulators need to play a bigger part in tracking hours and jobs. The Chinese now do, with their centralised pilot licensing app. The airlines use an API to upload pilot hours to the authority. We laugh and mock them, but on this front they are years ahead.
Some years ago, a relatively large UK Tour Operator airline went bust, lets just say that a lot of references where written by friends for friends (after losing their jobs). What of that?
The industry is broken, regulators need to play a bigger part in tracking hours and jobs. The Chinese now do, with their centralised pilot licensing app. The airlines use an API to upload pilot hours to the authority. We laugh and mock them, but on this front they are years ahead.
Last edited by CW247; 13th Jul 2023 at 05:02.
if the reference was (eg) “I can confirm Capt Fred was employed by UK Tour Operator as a B777 captain for the period … and the company had no cause for concern about his performance at any stage” and it is signed off for UK Tour Operator when the signatory has no authority to act on behalf of the company then it is fraudulent.
If you use a false instrument to gain a pecuniary advantage (in this case employment), you commit fraud. The fact that others have got away with it does not make it right.
If you want an example of self-provided references conveniently omitting ‘unhelpful’ information with disastrous consequences, check out the NTSB report into the Atlas Air B767 accident in Feb 2019.
I was off to the Sim for my six monthly check ride on the other other side of the world, while in the front galley talking to the crew, the captain appeared from the cockpit from the BA 320 for a "comfort break", the crew pointed to me and said "he's also crew but flys helicopters". The captain said hello and we had a little chat. I said, "where did you learn to fly, OAT at Oxford ?" No no he protested, "I'm ex RAF" while looking down his nose at me. I pressed further and asked what he flew in the RAF, fighter, transport ? None of these, University Air Squadron !!!!!!! God give me strength
As my old CFI said, 'When we were teaching you, you were being taught to RAF training standards'.
Some of my chums had over 250 hours. One getting 400 hours, of top quality free tution.
At a reunion over a decade ago, I spoke to a current UAS member who had 30 minutes in two years on the squadron. How times have changed.
