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China Eastern 737-800 MU5735 accident March 2022

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China Eastern 737-800 MU5735 accident March 2022

Old 18th May 2022, 09:27
  #501 (permalink)  
 
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The headlines don't match the quotes. The media have inferred that because it appears to not be a technical problem with the aircraft or engines, it must have been a deliberate act. That's a big leap. Hopefully the CVR can illuminate that..

My questions, if a pilot was standing, became incapacitated and fell forward, could they fall on the yoke such that it would put the aircraft into a near vertical attitude?
If you had an aircraft in a near vertical attitude with an incapacitated person on the yoke, how difficult would it be for the other pilot(s) to remove the incapacitated person and regain control ?

(SLF and Chartered Engineer working in aerospace)
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Old 18th May 2022, 10:06
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No. There is a control sear behind each yoke. A toppling person would fall forward onto the engine controls. I am sure that a pilot's deliberate sustained nose down control input would be impossible to counter in sufficient time to affect the outcome. That’s after 25 years on type, and I am a former University football linebacker.
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Old 18th May 2022, 11:49
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Calling it suicide by pilot is not particularly good description of it as well you could argue... suicide is something you do to yourself and doesn't involve others...
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Old 18th May 2022, 11:57
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^^^^^^^ Mass murder would be more appropriate.
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Old 18th May 2022, 12:58
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There are assumptions being made here. The question, then, is ... who benefits from the options posed (both in terms of finance, and reputation)?
Having closely followed the Colorado Springs event, I am unconvinced.
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Old 18th May 2022, 13:11
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Originally Posted by BoeingDriver99 View Post
WideScreen has it occurred to you that the other two pilots in the flight deck may have disagreed with the other pilot and perhaps attempted to take control?
Of course, though, this idea would make the situation even more strange, that the assumed illicit pilot manages to become rogue again and the 2 others "didn't" do anything at all, given the startling factor of a potential first action would be overcome by now.

And the whole is even stranger, given it is clear, the pilots do attempt to keep the aircraft somewhat on the original course (deviates roughly +/- 30 degrees), which would be very strange, when fighting with the yokes would happen.

Let us wait and see, what the control inputs were: Yoke or trim.

My bet is on trim. And that might not have been through any of the trim switches in the cockpit........
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Old 18th May 2022, 14:03
  #507 (permalink)  
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Just to redeem my fellow journalists: The leap from

“The plane did what it was told to do by someone in the cockpit,” said a person who is familiar with American officials’ preliminary assessment, which includes an analysis of information extracted from the plane’s damaged flight-data recorder.
to those headlines is not as big as some here like to make us believe. That is a very specific statement in regard to action and effect made by someone who's seen inside information.
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Old 18th May 2022, 15:29
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Originally Posted by Jonty View Post
I’m not buying it.
These Boeings have a history of “deliberately” crashing. The only suicide I know of that’s been confirmed was the German Wings one. The rest are conjecture to save the manufacturer,
Air Mozambique flight 470 in 2013. That one is hard to argue with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAM_Mo...nes_Flight_470
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Old 18th May 2022, 16:59
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Originally Posted by txl View Post
Just to redeem my fellow journalists: The leap from

“The plane did what it was told to do by someone in the cockpit,” said a person who is familiar with American officials’ preliminary assessment, which includes an analysis of information extracted from the plane’s damaged flight-data recorder.

to those headlines is not as big as some here like to make us believe. That is a very specific statement in regard to action and effect made by someone who's seen inside information.
Actually, the reality might be even less exact, and this might read more like:
“The plane did what we read back from what the sensors of the cockpit flight controls registered on the FDR."
The CVR could give the additional info, whether the movements of the cockpit flight controls (represented by the sensor values) are caused by human inputs. Of course not in a 1:1 relationship, though qualitatively.


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Old 18th May 2022, 19:49
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The yoke forces are on the FDR - so it would be trivial to differentiate between pilot yoke inputs and a trim failure.
I know people who were directly involved in the Egypt Air investigation. The Egyptians never agreed with a pilot deliberate act, but among the investigators on this side of the pond, there was zero doubt.

Originally Posted by Clop_Clop View Post
Calling it suicide by pilot is not particularly good description of it as well you could argue... suicide is something you do to yourself and doesn't involve others...
It's rather well documented that people that are suicidal generally don't account for how their actions will affect other, uninvolved people (e.g. the passengers). Hence someone who decides to commit suicide by suddenly turning their car into on-coming traffic at high speed won't consider the impact of the young family occupants of the oncoming car.
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Old 19th May 2022, 06:28
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
The yoke forces are on the FDR - so it would be trivial to differentiate between pilot yoke inputs and a trim failure.
.....
Good to hear about the yoke forces being registered.

Still, why word the "pilot input" so cryptic, when it was "just" yoke input:
“The plane did what it was told to do by someone in the cockpit,”
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Old 19th May 2022, 06:37
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Scenario 2/20.

If I was senior (and bitter) enough, maybe I could just request everyone else out of the cockpit, apart from the one at the controls. From there it’s my field of play…
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Old 19th May 2022, 07:28
  #513 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by jolihokistix View Post
Scenario 2/20.

If I was senior (and bitter) enough, maybe I could just request everyone else out of the cockpit, apart from the one at the controls. From there it’s my field of play…
Not allowed and its and eerie request. But waiting for the right moment when PIC goes to toilet before TOD...
​​​​​​... and the cadet would not take the vacant chair but stay on the jump seat out of courtesy.

​​​​​​
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Old 19th May 2022, 08:27
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Originally Posted by WideScreen View Post
Good to hear about the yoke forces being registered.

Still, why word the "pilot input" so cryptic, when it was "just" yoke input:
But your "bet" is on trim isn't it? If there were no defects currently being investigated, either it wasn't trim or it was forward trim with neutral or forward control input. Surely this type of event couldn't happen with any crew that were monitoring the flight path. And I can't think of many instances where a yoke input could be achieved without at least some form of pilot input (deliberate or accidental).

I have an open mind on this event. What we currently have is a leak from some party which in my mind has no credibility guarantee. Until we get something on formal lines I'd say there are many possible scenarios. The sooner this can be put to bed the better in my opinion.
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Old 19th May 2022, 13:34
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Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
If we look at the number of actual or suspected suicide crashes involving just commercial flights and excluding terrorist incidents, the numbers are quite disturbing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_pilot

A technical issue on a particular type which was causing a hull loss this frequently would be unacceptable and the fleet would be grounded until it was rectified. The authorities will need to be seen to be taking action, even if it's ineffective at least they tried something. Having a cabin crew come in when one pilot left the flight deck didn't really achieve anything. The next step could be psychiatric evaluations which enable the buck to be passed on to the psychiatrist if anything happens.
​​
Wikipedia should be calling it what it is - mass murder or murder-suicide, not suicide, if there is anyone but a single pilot aboard.
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Old 20th May 2022, 00:31
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I am slightly shocked by the rush to conclusion here. As I am by the premature disclosure of FDR data. The question that now needs an answer is, "What were the pilots seeing on their displays" .
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Old 20th May 2022, 02:01
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Originally Posted by phylosocopter View Post
"What were the pilots seeing on their displays" .
Simple answer. Only brown color on the PFD.
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Old 20th May 2022, 02:07
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Originally Posted by EDLB View Post
Simple answer. Only brown color on the PFD.
But if for some reason they were only seeing blue that would go some way to explaining events . We do not know. How about we wait for more facts.
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Old 20th May 2022, 04:01
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Originally Posted by Jonty View Post
I’m not buying it.
These Boeings have a history of “deliberately” crashing. The only suicide I know of that’s been confirmed was the German Wings one. The rest are conjecture to save the manufacturer,
That is certainly an explanation that the Chinese will be looking for a way to somehow grasp at.

Expect a final report a long time from now with extensive analysis of many possible scenarios that can't be proven(unless there is obvious CVR statements).
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Old 20th May 2022, 09:45
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China Eastern 737-800 MU5735 accident March 202

When I was flying in China, the crew would typically comprise of a very junior First Officer and a slightly less junior First Officer, trained in either the US or Australia. They would return to China and their FAA or CASA Pilot License would be taken off of them or voluntarily surrendered. They would be under the thumb of crusty ol' dudes who had no clue about CRM and TEM, would shout at them and insult them, sometimes they would be hit. I have personally witnessed the shouting and insults, while flying jump seat. For a Chinese pilot to fly for the airline and certainly before they become Captain, they must join the Communist Party of China -as if that has any relevance to serving as a flight crewmember. The airline management would fine them or penalize their pay IF they called in sick or told Crew Scheduling they had insufficient Crew Rest. I constantly flew with young Chinese FOs who were sick or grossly fatigued (not more than 4 hours sleep). These young FOs barely spoke English, though some were better than others. By the time I would fly with them they had 750 to 2,500 flying hours. They would be considered for Captain upgrade after 2,500 flying hours. One of my functions was to sign the Chinese FOs Pilot Logbook to certify their flying hours. Whenever I discovered any exaggeration or erroneous entries, overstating what we/they did, I would refuse to sign their Pilot Logbook, unless they changed it. I found most of the FOs were pretty timid. The more junior they were, the more timid they were, though I had one new FO decide he would change my fuel order, because he believed he knew better with his whopping 750 flying hours. I would typically fly with one FO outbound and they would swap seats and I would fly with the former jump seat FO, inbound. I flew with about 200 FOs. I would guess that 10% were cooperative and I felt they had real potential as aviators. Half of that number I would consider as friends and had the potential to become great pilots.

I asked many FOs why they became pilots and told those who offered pathetic replies or who did it for the uniform or salary or to make their their daddy and mommy or girlfriend proud, that they should consider another career, like driving a taxi. Another Asian airline I flew with, we were operating a Heavy Crew. I would fly the crap weather and make the approach and landing at a snowbound airport, then fly the jump seat, to LAX, and fly us back to Asia, after our Crew Rest. So, dig this situation . . . The Asian Captain who replaced me, a very nice guy, too nice was a retired Major in his country's Air Force. His Asian First Officer from the snowbound airport to LAX was a retired Brigadier General in the Air Force. I refer to them as Captain-Major and General FO. Cathay Pacific was parked opposite direction and de-icing. Falling snow, ramp and taxiways covered with frozen snow and slush, text book definition of Icing Conditions. The European Cruise Captain just completed external preflight of our 744. He invited me to go outside to show me the aircraft would in fact need to be de-iced, when he asked me, General FO, said, "No need." Have you EVER heard of an FO telling a Captain what to do or making decisions for him? I went outside and yep, it needed de-icing. I came back inside and asked Captain-Major, if he would like to take a look for himself, when General FO said, "No need." I was effing livid. I grabbed the SOP, the Boeing Manual, removed the pertinent pages, lifted the Yoke clip and let lit loudly snap and told him to read it. "There is a need." Guess what his reply was? "No need." I looked to Captain-Major, and he looked like a spent dick, shriveled and withdrawn into his seat.

THIS IS WHAT GOES ON IN ASIAN COCKPITS, though the power gradient is not often weighted toward the FO . . . That particular FO was the senior most FO at the airline and for whatever reason could not be upgraded to Captain, yet ruled the roost -except when flying with me and he couldn't fly well, at all. I gave him an opportunity to show me how great he was at Cruise, Autopilot Off. General Dick!

So, relate the aforementioned to MU5735.

Lastly, for consideration, Andreas Lubitz, (GermanWings) passed the DLR, which has a high failure rate. The MMPI, NEO-PI-R, FFM, PILAPT, COMPASS, and consider the most stringent test with about an 8% pass rate, the DLR, did not predict the actions of Andreas Lubitz. Suppose after an airline pilot takes and passes one of the Psych Tests with flying colors, but develops a terminal cancer or some other disease that is a death sentence and he has nothing to live for . . . Would any of those Psych Tests predict the terminal illness and the change in that pilot's mental health. NO! In fact, the authors or designers of those Psych Tests would not have a clue what makes a pilot or what it takes to be(come) a pilot. According to the studies done for the US Army, to predict who would make the best candidates and who would be likely to graduate, I would have been on the bottom of the Bell Curve, my Senior TAC told me I would not make it and that he wanted my resignation on his desk. I snapped to attention, saluted, and replied, "You will have to kill me first. I will not resign." I graduated with my class. In fact I was the first Class Leader and held the position the longest. Not only did I graduate with my original classmates, I was offered my first choice assignment. I bounced from that springboard to become a Captain flying Boeing 747-400, 747-300, 747-200, 737-800, and 737-700 transport category jets. Our last Class Leader and Honor Grad had not even accomplished that during his aviation career. Thus, I standby the aforementioned statement, In fact, the authors or designers of those Psych Tests would not have a clue what makes a pilot or what it takes to be(come) a pilot. You have to believe in yourself and you have to have a real passion for it, probably since boyhood.

Last edited by FWRWATPLX2; 20th May 2022 at 09:54. Reason: spelling error
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