China Eastern 737-800 MU5735 accident March 2022
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Surprising there is no English language translation of the Chinese update 10th June, despite it basically being no information: 民航局介绍“3·21”东航MU5735航空器飞行事故最新进展 (yicai.com)
At the meeting, Dong Zhiyi, deputy director of the Civil Aviation Administration of China, said that after the "3.21" China Eastern Airlines MU5735 aircraft flight accident, in accordance with the relevant laws and regulations of China and the relevant provisions of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, the Civil Aviation Administration of China launched the technical investigation of the accident, and on April 20, the preliminary report and information circular of the accident investigation were announced to the public. At present, the accident investigation department is strictly following the investigation procedures and is still continuing to carry out in-depth wreckage and data evidence inspection, flight data analysis, experimental verification and other related work. Subsequently, with the advancement of the investigation work, the Civil Aviation Administration will release the progress and relevant information of the technical investigation of the accident in a timely and accurate manner in accordance with laws and regulations. - Google Translate
At the meeting, Dong Zhiyi, deputy director of the Civil Aviation Administration of China, said that after the "3.21" China Eastern Airlines MU5735 aircraft flight accident, in accordance with the relevant laws and regulations of China and the relevant provisions of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, the Civil Aviation Administration of China launched the technical investigation of the accident, and on April 20, the preliminary report and information circular of the accident investigation were announced to the public. At present, the accident investigation department is strictly following the investigation procedures and is still continuing to carry out in-depth wreckage and data evidence inspection, flight data analysis, experimental verification and other related work. Subsequently, with the advancement of the investigation work, the Civil Aviation Administration will release the progress and relevant information of the technical investigation of the accident in a timely and accurate manner in accordance with laws and regulations. - Google Translate
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"Surprising there is no English language translation of the Chinese update 10th June, despite ..."
The consequence of not giving an english translation next to the national language (either an official ICAO language or not) is that thousands of professionals in the aerospace community are forced to get their own translations or give up. This will only lead to confusion, next to the normal interpretation discussions that you will already have with a formal translation. Making your own translations can be very time consuming, introduces translation and (serious) interpretation errors, and will reduce the time available for other safety work. I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that this is a systemic safety weakness in the global system.
A good translation has access to the actual investigation.
The consequence of not giving an english translation next to the national language (either an official ICAO language or not) is that thousands of professionals in the aerospace community are forced to get their own translations or give up. This will only lead to confusion, next to the normal interpretation discussions that you will already have with a formal translation. Making your own translations can be very time consuming, introduces translation and (serious) interpretation errors, and will reduce the time available for other safety work. I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that this is a systemic safety weakness in the global system.
A good translation has access to the actual investigation.
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China has promised full compliance with international law. Which means a proper and good report. So prelim after 30 days with factual information, annual updates with more factual information and preliminary analysis … And a final complete report with full analysis, conclusions and recommendations. Until that sequence finishes everything is open. So who said it was a deliberate act? No report or a flimsy report would constitute a serious loss of face I am told.
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From where I sit in China the rumour is that the entire investigation so far has been thrown out the window as the results don't make the party happy so the entire investigation is being restarted with fresh, keen faces eager to please.
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Indeed, I haven't a clue as to where phylocopter is coming from with that remark. I asked a simple question after noting over a month without so much as a mention of this accident.
Lol; good to see the classic "I don't like your viewpoint on the internet so you're basically a danger to aviation and others"
From where I sit in China the rumour is that the entire investigation so far has been thrown out the window as the results don't make the party happy so the entire investigation is being restarted with fresh, keen faces eager to please.
From where I sit in China the rumour is that the entire investigation so far has been thrown out the window as the results don't make the party happy so the entire investigation is being restarted with fresh, keen faces eager to please.
China has promised full compliance with international law. Which means a proper and good report. So prelim after 30 days with factual information, annual updates with more factual information and preliminary analysis … And a final complete report with full analysis, conclusions and recommendations. Until that sequence finishes everything is open. So who said it was a deliberate act? No report or a flimsy report would constitute a serious loss of face I am told.
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China knows this, but there is a timing problem. Later this year the 20th Congress of the Chinese Communist Party is to be held, where it is expected that Xi will be elected to the 3rd term, breaking serious party and political precedents and going against considerable internal party opposition. Negative news will not be released ahead of the party congress to avoid marring the occasion.
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Just another suicide then !
Like many interested persons, whether a professional pilot, doctor, paying customer, accident investigator, airplane manufacturer, airline operator or politician , to name a few.
I have skin in the game, I have posted here and spoken to anyone patient enough to give me the time of day.
I have been moderated off a few times when my opinion isn’t as desired. I understand moderators have a difficult job, apparent criticising of the dead and liable all come into play.
So my beef isn’t the 100 % truth to any accident investigation, there is always grey. A lot of factors and detail.
The official report into the German Wings crash of 24 Mar 2015 is worth a thorough read by any person interested in flying safety. Especially pilots and doctors. Everything is there in black and white, a very well written and thought out report.
So the problem is nothing has changed re: pilot suicide.
Depending on your point of view there have been say 6 pilot suicides of commercial airliners, with large loss of life.
If the crash happens to occur in the country of the operating airline, the “ conclusions “ of the report are wishy washy.
Boeing and Airbus know exactly what happened, but obviously they want to keep selling airplanes to these operators.
So they play stumb ( stupid and dumb )
So my beef is prevention, or the lack of action on prevention !
There were many warnings in the behaviour of some of the pilots if not all in previous crashes caused by “ deliberate “ crew action.
I have tried to push this issue with people above me, the standard reply “ oh it’s so rare, we have other priorities! “
We’ll a 1,000 dead people or so isn’t an insignificant amount.
As the manufactures improve aircraft design and the pilots and the airlines get there act together for safer operations, ATC, met, security at airports etc etc
Crashing of modern airliners has gone from 1 or 2 a week in the 1960s to 1 or 2 a year recently.
With a lot more flying, a lot more flying ! But we now have the locked door policy which I’m not so sure is always a benefit!
So the very rare pilot suicide is now becoming a highly significant factor as planes don’t so much crash these days. ( conveniently shoot downs other “ external “ factors are not included in most statistics, another area of concern for me ! )
So back to the topic of preventing pilot suicide.
It’s not difficult, all the work has been done. All we need is to accept that pilots are human beings and have formal and informal procedures to follow.
Just like, aviation weather or and aircraft’s technical status, we need to assess another area of risk.
There are other industries where this is formally looked at and dealt with on a day to day basis.
All the aviation industry needs to do is find a system that works.
But first we have to accept the reality of the situation.
Sweeping the risk the risk under the carpet is no longer acceptable .
We just need to deal with it .
Hand wringing after the next “ tragic unforeseen possible pilot suicide, unexplained very strange crash “ isn’t acceptable.
Many aviation professionals claim to be “ proactive “ with safety, total ballshit, it has always been reactive.
Look at any crash report, from Kegworth to 737 Max.
“ we need to improve aeroplane design and train the pilots better “
how about some proactive safety ?
The report into the German Wings crash should be required reading for all of us.
To expect a doctor in a 30 min or 1 hour examination once a year to spot a suicide risk is not realistic.
People change their behaviour in exams and also crises in life don’t always happen when it’s time for your annual medical !
So I’m not an expert or qualified in this area but we need a system that can absorb, “ self “ reporting, active airline management ( as opposed to eyes closed management ), “ peer “ reporting , family and friends.
The arbitrator of this information being a mental health professional or someone adequately trained in this area.
As I stated above, there are industries where this already happens.
I haven’t worked in any of these industries, but from what I have heard in casual conversations, people are assessed before work by a series of questions to ascertain their mental health.
Informally we nearly always do this anyway before flights.
“ come in far today, how was your drive ? “
” your a new face, how are you enjoying the job? How is the training ? “
these are all ritual sniffing, but unfortunately if the answers you get are worrisome, we don’t have procedures to act.
Essentially we should have a set of checks in our heads, once someone clearly isn’t “ all together “ today, you are empowered to act.
So time for the standby or a cancellation, which is always difficult to do. The management pressure is always “ what the f*** , what do you mean a cancellation! “
But for safety sometimes someone has to say stop ! As all professional pilots know .
So let’s bite the bullet and adopt a system that accepts pilots are humans, we all need someone sometimes to say.
” Thanks for coming in today, but we think you need a rest ! “
It’s exactly like the weather or an aircraft’s technical status, it’s not rocket science, all the work has been done. We just need a system that has a procedure if there are even “ small “ concerns.
Someone who has training in this area should make the final decision, and definitely not airline management !
Like many interested persons, whether a professional pilot, doctor, paying customer, accident investigator, airplane manufacturer, airline operator or politician , to name a few.
I have skin in the game, I have posted here and spoken to anyone patient enough to give me the time of day.
I have been moderated off a few times when my opinion isn’t as desired. I understand moderators have a difficult job, apparent criticising of the dead and liable all come into play.
So my beef isn’t the 100 % truth to any accident investigation, there is always grey. A lot of factors and detail.
The official report into the German Wings crash of 24 Mar 2015 is worth a thorough read by any person interested in flying safety. Especially pilots and doctors. Everything is there in black and white, a very well written and thought out report.
So the problem is nothing has changed re: pilot suicide.
Depending on your point of view there have been say 6 pilot suicides of commercial airliners, with large loss of life.
If the crash happens to occur in the country of the operating airline, the “ conclusions “ of the report are wishy washy.
Boeing and Airbus know exactly what happened, but obviously they want to keep selling airplanes to these operators.
So they play stumb ( stupid and dumb )
So my beef is prevention, or the lack of action on prevention !
There were many warnings in the behaviour of some of the pilots if not all in previous crashes caused by “ deliberate “ crew action.
I have tried to push this issue with people above me, the standard reply “ oh it’s so rare, we have other priorities! “
We’ll a 1,000 dead people or so isn’t an insignificant amount.
As the manufactures improve aircraft design and the pilots and the airlines get there act together for safer operations, ATC, met, security at airports etc etc
Crashing of modern airliners has gone from 1 or 2 a week in the 1960s to 1 or 2 a year recently.
With a lot more flying, a lot more flying ! But we now have the locked door policy which I’m not so sure is always a benefit!
So the very rare pilot suicide is now becoming a highly significant factor as planes don’t so much crash these days. ( conveniently shoot downs other “ external “ factors are not included in most statistics, another area of concern for me ! )
So back to the topic of preventing pilot suicide.
It’s not difficult, all the work has been done. All we need is to accept that pilots are human beings and have formal and informal procedures to follow.
Just like, aviation weather or and aircraft’s technical status, we need to assess another area of risk.
There are other industries where this is formally looked at and dealt with on a day to day basis.
All the aviation industry needs to do is find a system that works.
But first we have to accept the reality of the situation.
Sweeping the risk the risk under the carpet is no longer acceptable .
We just need to deal with it .
Hand wringing after the next “ tragic unforeseen possible pilot suicide, unexplained very strange crash “ isn’t acceptable.
Many aviation professionals claim to be “ proactive “ with safety, total ballshit, it has always been reactive.
Look at any crash report, from Kegworth to 737 Max.
“ we need to improve aeroplane design and train the pilots better “
how about some proactive safety ?
The report into the German Wings crash should be required reading for all of us.
To expect a doctor in a 30 min or 1 hour examination once a year to spot a suicide risk is not realistic.
People change their behaviour in exams and also crises in life don’t always happen when it’s time for your annual medical !
So I’m not an expert or qualified in this area but we need a system that can absorb, “ self “ reporting, active airline management ( as opposed to eyes closed management ), “ peer “ reporting , family and friends.
The arbitrator of this information being a mental health professional or someone adequately trained in this area.
As I stated above, there are industries where this already happens.
I haven’t worked in any of these industries, but from what I have heard in casual conversations, people are assessed before work by a series of questions to ascertain their mental health.
Informally we nearly always do this anyway before flights.
“ come in far today, how was your drive ? “
” your a new face, how are you enjoying the job? How is the training ? “
these are all ritual sniffing, but unfortunately if the answers you get are worrisome, we don’t have procedures to act.
Essentially we should have a set of checks in our heads, once someone clearly isn’t “ all together “ today, you are empowered to act.
So time for the standby or a cancellation, which is always difficult to do. The management pressure is always “ what the f*** , what do you mean a cancellation! “
But for safety sometimes someone has to say stop ! As all professional pilots know .
So let’s bite the bullet and adopt a system that accepts pilots are humans, we all need someone sometimes to say.
” Thanks for coming in today, but we think you need a rest ! “
It’s exactly like the weather or an aircraft’s technical status, it’s not rocket science, all the work has been done. We just need a system that has a procedure if there are even “ small “ concerns.
Someone who has training in this area should make the final decision, and definitely not airline management !
Pegase Driver
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Auxtank : +1
Turkey brain :
With comments like these you are not going to go very far here....
Turkey brain :
Boeing and Airbus know exactly what happened, but obviously they want to keep selling airplanes to these operators. So they play stumb ( stupid and dumb )
Administrator
Turkey Brain, I'll keep this short.
You make a very broad declaration about what "we" should do (as an industry) regarding this very challenging area of risk: pilot mental health and suicide ideation.
The "we" that you refer to, however, includes multiple different base cultures, and multiple different corporate cultures, each of which has norms and assumptions that do not fit into a single box.
"It's not difficult?" Nonsense.
I heartily agree with you that the German Wings accident report is well done and worth a read.
I'll leave it to the general community of PPRuNe professionals to address some of your other assertions, presumptions, statements, and conclusions.
It’s not difficult, all the work has been done. All we need is to accept that pilots are human beings and have formal and informal procedures to follow.
The "we" that you refer to, however, includes multiple different base cultures, and multiple different corporate cultures, each of which has norms and assumptions that do not fit into a single box.
"It's not difficult?" Nonsense.
I heartily agree with you that the German Wings accident report is well done and worth a read.
I'll leave it to the general community of PPRuNe professionals to address some of your other assertions, presumptions, statements, and conclusions.
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After the Japan Airlines suicide attempt on a DC-8, I believe they added a line to the dispatcher's check list which basically asked,"Are the crew sane today"?
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Sanity?
Pardon the cynicism, please, from this SLF, but nowadays, that's a very uncertain question even for ppl we share the road with! We can't know until it's too late.
Last edited by Organfreak; 6th Jan 2023 at 15:58. Reason: spelling
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Thank you for your replies and thoughts.
I would like to generate some discussion and hopefully action.
1: Recent info , no change to 737 - 800 design, no changes to pilot procedures. From Boeing, the plane responded as commanded .
Maybe someone has knowledge of the airlines rostering procedures, but there’s a chance that the relevant airline now have a tick box exercise,
BOX “ are the crew sane and did we demote a senior pilot who may hold a grudge against everyone ? “
2 : In response, we as an industry have done very well with multiple base cultures and corporate cultures to improve many aspects of safety in maintenance, ATC, weather reporting, aircraft design, pilot training.
So why is mental health still taboo ?
I am playing devils advocate, but really it’s just an area where we need awareness and some “ checks “ to follow or at least a basic awareness of risk. At the moment, all we have is 1 hr with an doctor each year and the hope of self reporting or an aware colleague who feels emboldened to refuse to fly with a colleague. This is a big step and chance of back up from an airline management or a local doctor seems unlikely.
So the only check as hinted at by SLF, ( highly valued customer) is when the plane tent pegs!
There are industries who have done the work and have awareness, I’ll find some references, I hope.
My guess ! any mental health professional given a face to face meeting with any human could probably decide after a fairly brief interview
“ do I trust this person with my family in the next month as the pilot of a plane, with a locked door policy? “
3: It has worked so far, in that no management has been jailed for corporate manslaughter. Hasn’t really helped the more recent victims.
1: Recent info , no change to 737 - 800 design, no changes to pilot procedures. From Boeing, the plane responded as commanded .
Maybe someone has knowledge of the airlines rostering procedures, but there’s a chance that the relevant airline now have a tick box exercise,
BOX “ are the crew sane and did we demote a senior pilot who may hold a grudge against everyone ? “
2 : In response, we as an industry have done very well with multiple base cultures and corporate cultures to improve many aspects of safety in maintenance, ATC, weather reporting, aircraft design, pilot training.
So why is mental health still taboo ?
I am playing devils advocate, but really it’s just an area where we need awareness and some “ checks “ to follow or at least a basic awareness of risk. At the moment, all we have is 1 hr with an doctor each year and the hope of self reporting or an aware colleague who feels emboldened to refuse to fly with a colleague. This is a big step and chance of back up from an airline management or a local doctor seems unlikely.
So the only check as hinted at by SLF, ( highly valued customer) is when the plane tent pegs!
There are industries who have done the work and have awareness, I’ll find some references, I hope.
My guess ! any mental health professional given a face to face meeting with any human could probably decide after a fairly brief interview
“ do I trust this person with my family in the next month as the pilot of a plane, with a locked door policy? “
3: It has worked so far, in that no management has been jailed for corporate manslaughter. Hasn’t really helped the more recent victims.
Last edited by Turkey Brain; 8th Jan 2023 at 10:42. Reason: Sense
