Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

A350 pilot startled by windshear alarm

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

A350 pilot startled by windshear alarm

Old 16th Jul 2021, 08:13
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This simply needs better training and stricter testing of pilots. The problem is arising because training and testing has been cut too far.

AI would cost billions to develop, billions which should be spent on better training. AI can't deal with severe electrical failure or fire or crew problems or ramp problems or passenger problems, so we are still going to need pilots. So let's train them properly !

At every SIM, each pilot should have the opportunity to practise 5 x go-arounds, 5 x OEI go-arounds, 5 x wind-shear, 5 x initial EFATO, 5 x crosswind landings, 5 x TCAS, just from the handling and initial actions point of view. Manual control without FD's where possible.

Each practise should have the five attempts consecutively, so the candidate can learn from their own mistakes and improve and refine their actions each time. Also every SIM should include unreliable speed and partial instrument panel flying.

Dull, and maybe even boring, perhaps, but we would all benefit from the practise.
Uplinker is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 08:31
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Banana Joe

Does the specific background really matter that much? If you spend enough time doing nothing but staring at the FD, your skills will atrophy.
Check Airman is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 09:25
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 3,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Uplinker
The incident is not about not knowing how to go around but about PF going berserk after hearing WIND SHEER and PM after taking over forgetting to follow up on FCU selections. All the billions will be wasted if this is going to happen. Simulator cannot produce startle unless perhaps give them a go around and cause some loud sound of explosion with blinding flashes of lightning. But they are likely press emergency freeze and run out. Instead of coming out with such conclusions it's better to stop accident/incident investigations and accept that they will happen and move on. Because for every pilot error some human factor is flashed as an epitaph or an obituary and every few years same human factors keep causing similar incidents
Only answer for human factors appears to be is not to have human presence.

Last edited by vilas; 16th Jul 2021 at 11:53.
vilas is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 11:17
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Banana Joe

When he retired the skies became marginally safer!
srjumbo747 is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 11:27
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hi vilas, I think you've made my point for me. Because neither PF nor PM were practised enough, this wind-shear event caused them both to panic and do the wrong things, and not do some of the right things.

Had they been sufficiently practised, they would have smoothly performed the drill, both PF and PM working together.

The "startle effect" is an overused excuse. Pilots are, (or should be), trained for and have practised all the memory drills and will have performed many of the QRH drills, so there should be no startle effect.
Uplinker is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 11:57
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Vienna
Age: 49
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
As a mere occasional fair-weather well-rested leisure pilot, I wonder how much "after a flight of more than 11 hours" might have contributed to the incident.
Armchairflyer is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 12:22
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Victoria
Age: 75
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Double crew, so only max 5 hours in the seat
Flingwing47 is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 13:27
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,098
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This is just bad handling of an aircraft, pure and simple. Such incidents need genuine pilots, as the term defines.

Now the eternal question is why there were none present and how to remedy the situation.

In my humble opinion the remedy is only training and experience by exposure. But REAL training and not the actual placebo sim scenarios everyone can look into and prepare beforehand. They only please regulations but not real life. Pilots need to regain (or worse: aquire) piloting skills again.
The basic skill required here is: AP/AT off, wings level, pitch + power, then control the speed ….. It’s commonly called flying.

I don’t like the cries for another automatic feature. They can fail to engage, the AP can just throw it back to you because it does no recognise any valid mode or the AT can be engaged but refuses to act etc. etc. In all those cases it’s back to square one, meaning YOU will have to FLY it all over again.

I don’t like the cries for more drills or memory items. There are too many already. Quite often they are somewhat contradictory and more often than not they are prone to changes by rocket-science blessed chief instructors.

In case of confusion or startle, the human being is mostly only able to repeat two or three very simple, trained actions, which again is commonly called flying, but not the myriad of brilliantly crafted multiple step procedures on the 50+ pages in the QRH. They can be skilfully memorised and regurgitated, but it’s way more difficult to apply them correctly when needed. QED.
glofish is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 13:47
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Just Around The Corner
Posts: 1,395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@Uplinker , there is no time in today sim session to practice five time in a row , as you probably know , is the regulator that want the pilot be trained at minimum level . “ They will learn on line training “ or “ They will learn on line flying “ is the mantra.
And then you end up with a released on line cadet asking where to look.
Yes many nice terminology , evidence training , competence training , but the fact are that if an instructor push for more simulator time , nine times out of ten will be indicated as “ bad apple “ from the management . Or we wanna talk the fact that , always the regulator , want the new generation of pilot be trained to Upset Recovery ( in an airliner ) when it is not on syllabus to expose the cadet to a spin or even a full stall during basic training .
Nick 1 is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 19:10
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Москва/Ташкент
Age: 52
Posts: 883
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The whole problem starts with basic flying training, degraded over the years, including stall recovery (eliminated from many syllabus), introduction of the MPL (basically saves airlines money at the cost of what they view as an unnecessary skillset), and cost cutting everywhere else, from Sim time to fuel uplift justification... everything is now the bare minimum because profit trumps everything.
flash8 is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 19:32
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 3,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
For Airbus pilots most of whom retire without experiencing alternate/direct law routine UPRT training is a waste of time. AF447 wouldn't have happened if the crew was emphasized even in a classroom that in alternate law never pitch more than five degrees and just manage bank. The aircraft is envelope protected unless it enters a storm or something unusual attitude is not possible. Instead the simulator should have the ability to cause drop in speed or FD inaccuracies which will improve scan and promote better awareness.
vilas is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 19:47
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: ??-ask crewing
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Dorf

If PPRuNe is a place we can speak freely without implicit woke censorship, can I observe the French have a record of basic handling failures of perfectly serviceable aeroplanes, stretching back decades. Pinning down what it is, is awkward, but the tough questions need to be asked.
Sick is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 19:48
  #33 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 72
Posts: 3,151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The full BEA report ( avail on their web site in French) gives a slight different story .

Fatigue ; not a factor they say although departed SFO 3h late . each crew got sleep rest during the flight and good rest night before. .
No young MPL in there , . F/O PF : 45 years old, ATPL 8600h of which 1200 on A330. Capt PM : 41 years old , ATPL 8000 h 2000 on A330/350 of which 600h Capt.
Relief pilot : 50 years old ATPL 11.700h . 3400 on 330/350..
They just forgot ( all 3 ) to notice the AP was disengaged during the Go around,, which led to a sequence or errors and incidents including maneuvers following a loss of separation with a departing aircraft .
No CVR was available.
Actual windshear highly unlikely considering the weather and being after sunset. , not reported by anyone before or after .
ATC Watcher is online now  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 19:51
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: 🇬🇧🇪🇸
Posts: 2,066
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Iím puzzled as to why there was any startle factor. The METARS prior to and during this arrival would have alerted me to the possibility of Windshear on approach (maybe even the ATIS stated it). I would have been self briefing (revising the QRH memory items) and later formally briefing the actions I/we would take in the event of a Windshear on final approach. Threat, error, management (TEM).
Nightstop is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 20:10
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Москва/Ташкент
Age: 52
Posts: 883
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
No CVR was available.
And why was that? Sorry don't read French, although some things obviously come to mind.
flash8 is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 20:53
  #36 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 72
Posts: 3,151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
They do not say only this note :
Note: The following information is mainly taken from the flight data maintenance recorder, witnesses testimonies, radio communication recordings and radar data. The CVR was not available.
ATC Watcher is online now  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 21:53
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 67
Posts: 3,657
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
vilas

Most pilots will never experience an engine failure - and far fewer will ever experience an engine failure during takeoff/initial climb. That's why it's so fundamentally important that it be trained for - because if you have the bad luck of it happening to you, you only get one chance to get it right.
tdracer is online now  
Old 17th Jul 2021, 05:09
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 3,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Engine failure was indeed a rare occurrence till PW GTF experiment. Although I liked the innovation, in India it produced an engine shut down almost every five weeks before it settled down. Also engines are not specifically protected against birds, FOD etc. The point about UPRT is different. The airbus is specifically designed to stay within the envelope. That's not the case with unprotected aircraft where the possibility always exists. Giving more handling in degraded modes like alternate/direct law will serve the purpose. Stall becomes a possibility in alternate law stall recovery is already mandatory part of training.
vilas is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2021, 06:25
  #39 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 72
Posts: 3,151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
As to Simulator training , the BEA report says they had a lot, and interestingly mention this :
During one of the simulator sessions, the CDB simulated a pilot incapacitation on takeoff as a PM. It turns out that the PF co-pilot for the session was the one in the incident
The report has a good analysis of the incident , makes comparisons with AF447, mentions the BEA 2012 recommendations made to EASA on startle effects , and add new ones asking to take into account of the high climb performance of modern twins when designing missed approach procedures (in ORY : complex, low altitude and a turn ).
The report should be later in English I suspect.
ATC Watcher is online now  
Old 17th Jul 2021, 07:09
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: victoria bc
Age: 80
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
As LP Hartley so aptly put it, “ The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there.” In aviation one of those things was the acquisition of experience, mostly bad, obtained the hard way with everything on the line. You can’t train for it, simulate it or acquire it in a world that has ironed out most of the wrinkles that made pilots wary and cynical and competent in a crisis. Today, better airplanes, technology and systems don’t make better pilots but they do make flying safer. Pilots are not what they were in the past because they very seldom need to be. That is a good thing, even when it does not appear that way.
ferry pilot is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.