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Southern Air 777 stall and recovery after takeoff, Nov 15th

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Southern Air 777 stall and recovery after takeoff, Nov 15th

Old 23rd Nov 2020, 14:52
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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4runner

I see where you are coming from but I do believe 400' is what is shown in the lesson profiles. Train as you fly, fly as you train.
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Old 23rd Nov 2020, 15:14
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Not in the Boeing FCTM at my old shop..... most operators and Boeing are now encouraging more handflying. This verywell could have been caused by said automation as previously discussed the little 777 potential trap of decaying airspeed in it’s alt capture profile coupled with cleaning up on a heavy weight takeoff..... most “pilots” would keep it simple and disconnect the autopilot and lower the nose.... or you could be a “manager” and futz around with the alt hold button!

Last edited by VThokie2; 23rd Nov 2020 at 15:38.
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Old 23rd Nov 2020, 19:27
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Your old shop? My recollection comes from instructing for almost years 10 on the B777 at The Boeing Company. Suggest you take a deep breath and wait and see if there is a formal report. Do agree there is more emphasis on hand flying proficiency these days than in the past. At first blush it appears the crew did a good job of recovery regardless of how the stall warning was encountered.
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Old 23rd Nov 2020, 20:14
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Reread my post and realize I in no way was I trying to be snarky or condescending as you just did. My point is I still have my 777 Boeing FCTM and FCOM in my hands, and yes I was trained by Boeing instructors in Kent/Tukwilla, nowhere does it say engaging the AP at 400ft was SOP, however at heavy weights it would be very wise to do so. I agree with everything else you said, crew most likely did a good job.
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Old 23rd Nov 2020, 20:18
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Of course we have no idea of the cause of this particular incident however in relation to early capture you are all missing the point. If the ( 2 button press) method I mentioned had been implemented the AC would never have entered an "undesired state" in the first place. And no I am not scared to hand fly, I just fly the aircraft the easiest and safest way I know how based on what I have picked up over the past 2 decades on 777s. I figure that 2 button presses is easier that disconnecting and "rebuilding the automation" ....but what would I know !. Oh and BTW its 200ft AGL minimum engagement altitude for the AP on departure unless your company has a different rule.

The most common thing heard from the RHS of a modern flight deck "I know that"...some of you lot should just stick to maintaining the bar kitty on the layover.
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Old 23rd Nov 2020, 20:30
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Different ways to skin a cat, as long as the outcome is not in doubt, keeping the automatics in if you are quick with your recognition and button pushing definitely keeps it tidy, especially at high weights. However if this crew was not familiar/trained on the gotchas of early capture and were subsequently startled by it I doubt they’d be ready on the Alt hold switch doubletap. Going back to the general theme of appropriate levels of automation I would always cringe at my “old shop” reading the weekly safety reports where crews were skiddish turning off the automation (for fear of punishment) leading to unforgivable cascading snafus. Whenever both pilots are saying “what’s it doing?” (Regardless of if that stems from lack of knowledge or a true malfunction) It’s time to turn off some levels automation without fear of punitive action.... I’m sure I’m preaching to the choir, and we shall see if any of this has any bearing on this particular event.

Last edited by VThokie2; 23rd Nov 2020 at 21:12.
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 04:00
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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VThokie2

If getting a 777 into a stall situation on climb out doesn't get you tea and biscuits with the CP - what the hell does?
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 06:54
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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If doing something wrong gets you T&B with the CP you are more likely to hide errors. This will lead to the the same error probably being repeated, probably leading to more accidents. I haven't done the math myself, because I am a line pilot, but the fact that there is a very positive correlation between just culture and safety makes me think the CP should stay in his office by himself. The safety department will look at what happened, and if the pilots made errors, they wil be retrained, and if procedures were wrong every pilot will be retrained. Naming and shaming does not prevent the stall that already happened, and will definitely not prevent future stalls....
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 06:57
  #69 (permalink)  
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If getting a 777 into a stall situation on climb out doesn't get you tea and biscuits with the CP - what the hell does?
Broadcasting it over the airwaves?
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 08:17
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Lying about it.
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 08:54
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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The FBW on the 777 doesn’t give any stall protection?
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 09:43
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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for MAS:

"The 777 design utilizes envelope protection in all of its functionality rather than envelope limiting.
Envelope protection deters pilot inputs from exceeding certain predefined limits but does not prohibit it"


Gregg Bartley, Boeing
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 10:40
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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If getting a 777 into a stall situation on climb out doesn't get you tea and biscuits with the CP - what the hell does?

Like others have posted.... lying about it or covering it up! We have transitioned to a very non punitive system over here and it works fairly well. Most screw ups, potential screw ups, concerns... are voluntary disclosed to create millions of datapoints to enhance the overall safety systems, its non jeopardy unless you are intentionally disregarding a regulation. It took years for the FAA to adopt the concept, but when they did they quickly started seeing results with massive pilot buy in when they initiated the program with NASA under a non punitive framework at the urging of the NTSB. Consequently under a similar framework the previously skeptical FAA started pushing an almost identical concept extending it to the Airlines. It all makes for a far less stressful job.

The aftermath of this event will involve the safety department and perhaps the training department with the CP staying out of it, what is the point of the CP beating them over the head and threatening them? It serves little purpose.

Last edited by VThokie2; 24th Nov 2020 at 14:29.
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 11:53
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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VT
Well written post - especially last paragraph- and just contrasts the difference between an aviation developed culture and one that is not.
Without doubt - if this happened in certain parts of the world the crew would be packing their bags regardless of the causes or the final investigation. And I say this without sarcasm.
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 12:22
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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CDRW

Oh without a doubt, I spent 5 yrs in the sandbox as an expat.... they would have had their resignation letters already printed out for them to sign upon return to base in that part of the world.
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 13:03
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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ManaAdaSystem

Basically wot "oldchina" says: the FBW and associated systems will give you lots of hints of an approach to the stall but if you really want to come up with an imaginative way of beating the system it will let you do it....
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 14:20
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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CDRW

I might suggest tea and no biscuits is more likely.
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 14:31
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Again highly unlikely they will ever have to meet with a CP for a “carpet dance” (as we say here) over this.
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 15:12
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VThokie2 View Post
..........the little 777 potential trap of decaying airspeed in it’s alt capture profile coupled with cleaning up on a heavy weight takeoff..... most “pilots” would keep it simple and disconnect the autopilot and lower the nose.... or you could be a “manager” and futz around with the alt hold button!

I only flew Boeing for one season - the 737-300/400, so don't know how the 777 works.

Could someone please explain how the system allows speed to decay during Alt capture? What is the auto-thrust doing while this is happening, and why doesn't it push up the levers to maintain speed, or the FBW flatten off the pitch if the speed drops during capture?

I am surprised that a modern 777 requires intervention - either via button presses or by dropping out the AP - on such a basic, day-to-day manoeuvre as Alt capture? But if it does happen often, then a few deft button pushes are preferrable to suddenly dropping out the autopilot.

PS Nothing wrong with being a so-called 'manager' while flying big, modern jets, as long as it is appropriate to do so.
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 15:27
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VThokie2 View Post
Reread my post and realize I in no way was I trying to be snarky or condescending as you just did. My point is I still have my 777 Boeing FCTM and FCOM in my hands, and yes I was trained by Boeing instructors in Kent/Tukwilla, nowhere does it say engaging the AP at 400ft was SOP, however at heavy weights it would be very wise to do so. I agree with everything else you said, crew most likely did a good job.
My apologies as I did not mean to offend
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