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Southern Air 777 stall and recovery after takeoff, Nov 15th

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Southern Air 777 stall and recovery after takeoff, Nov 15th

Old 21st Nov 2020, 23:56
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Originally Posted by RoyHudd View Post
Hand-flying?
or (maybe)

Thinking that the AutoPilot was engaged when it was not the case
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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 01:16
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Most likely so
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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 03:13
  #43 (permalink)  
Rie
 
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Spoke to a couple of current SO guys. 400ft AP on is SOP. Time will tell if it was on or off though.
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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 06:16
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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if true this is extremely sad...
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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 06:23
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dropp the Pilot View Post
"Absence of attitude protection in the autopilot's altitude capture mode"

A different type but same issue, aircraft flown by test pilots but still fatal......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus...rie_Flight_129
The reason behınd having test pilot in LHS was... it was development test flight.

AFCS software fault, whıch was so tragically discovered by Nick Warner's crew, was corrected before 330 went into production.

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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 10:07
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder - if the system could inadvertently get into 'balked landing and a go-around' situation' - TOGA / IDLE after take-off ?

'… the auto-throttle remained engaged in the IDLE mode when the flight crew advanced the thrust levers to conduct a balked landing (a go-around initiated after touchdown, but before the thrust lever selection). Once airborne, the thrust levers moved back to idle.'

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgSAIB.nsf/dc7bd4f27e5f107486257221005f069d/b250f3003abca8a7862586220083a35a/$FILE/AIR-20-19.pdf

SAIB AIR-20-19

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...9?OpenDocument

Last edited by safetypee; 22nd Nov 2020 at 10:20.
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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 10:20
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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SaylGoodman

Why? Busiest airspace I’ve ever encountered along with not great ATC.
If a colleague informs me they’ll be hand flying it I don’t say anything but do think to myself WHY?
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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 12:19
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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400’ AP on as SOP is sad. Busy could be an excuse, but during this pandemic hardly any movement at all. And in busy airspace one could hand-fly easily. Myself and most of the colleagues do it all the time if the situation permits.
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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 13:54
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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400 A/P in JFK or LHR is prudent.

Thinking you are 'handflying' a 777 when following the FD with ATHR engaged is sad.
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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 14:07
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Totally agree and there speaks another professional pilot. The guys who think they’re ‘part’ of the aeroplane and want to ‘feel’ it are only increasing the workload for their colleague.
Leave the machoism to the film set.
PS and two weeks ago JFK seemed as busy as ever for departures.
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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 14:16
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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I was there a couple of days ago. Not busy at all. By all means putt it on at 400’ if you want. But having that as a “Standard Operating Procedure” is sad. If my colleague wants to fly manual in JFK airspace I’m usually ok with that. Turning the heading bug and pushing a few buttons doesn’t usually overload me. That is if the situation permits. Las month I flew raw data into HKG. Its a miracle I am still alive
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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 15:41
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by QNH1013 View Post
Departure out of JFK, audio reveals airspeed low warning and also the config warning (overspeed?) likely during recovery.
Modified from my earlier post......

Airspeed Low warning? It has been a while since I flew the triple but don't you only get a quadruple chime for the airspeed low caution(along with some visual indications such as FPV which disappeared when the flaps were retracted) followed by stickshaker.

When I turn the volume up on the video, it sounds to me like the autopilot disconnect warning(siren). It is rarely heard because the pilot usually clicks the autopilot disconnect button twice. But the second click may not happen on occasion such as stressful situations.

Overspeed warning? I suppose you get a siren for an overspeed as well, but the pilot on the radio was saying stall repeatedly, so excess speed was probably not the issue.

Disconnecting the autopilot is a plausible scenario in a low speed situation.

Our company had a similar event when the slats were retracted accidentally at too low an airspeed by the F/O.
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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 17:50
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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early flaps 1 retraction by PM that triggers “airspeed low” caution, PF pitches down to gain speed, PM freaks out and selects flaps 5 (placard speed 245kts) and exceeds Flaps Speed triggering the siren.. 🤷🏻‍♂️
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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 18:21
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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This is a good explanation of what may have happened, the presenter is a current 777 pilot.

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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 18:44
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by srjumbo747 View Post
SaylGoodman

Why? Busiest airspace I’ve ever encountered along with not great ATC.
If a colleague informs me they’ll be hand flying it I don’t say anything but do think to myself WHY?
Not in a 777, but I used to hand fly to and from JFK all the time. Especially fun with the Breezy point and Canarsie climbs, and of course the VOR 13L/R.
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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 19:34
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by deltahotel View Post
Alex. The min manoeuvring speeds for various flap settings are based on Vref. So min clean in Vref+80, min speed Flap 1 is +60, F5 is +40. etc.
DH, very nearly correct but I'd like to correct some of your terminology. The speeds you mention that are referenced to Vref are the FLAP maneuvering (US spelling) speeds, not the minimum maneuvering speeds which are generally about 20kt+ lower than the equivalent FLAP maneuvering speed.

The minimum maneuvering speed for the current flap setting is shown on the PFD speed tape as the top of the top of the amber band and the flap maneuvering speed is shown as the number of the current flap setting e.g. for Flap 5, a green number 5 on the speed tape. Source: 777 FCOM 10-10 > Controls and indications > Primary Flight Display (PFD) > PFD indications

The Vref +20, 40, 60 & 80 speeds are the FLAP maneuvering speeds for F20, F5, F1 and Flap UP respectively and are the speeds we would normally fly as a minimum with those flaps settings but they aren't the minimum maneuvering speeds, which are always lower. Confusing isn't it?

Finally Vref+80 is normally referred to as 'minimum clean speed' but, as above it isn't the minimum maneuvering speed clean.

it's a bit like explaining the laws of cricket.

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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 19:53
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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I believe 400" is Boeing SOP for the 777 and 787. Pretty sure SO is still using Boeing as its training vendor but that may have changed.
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Old 23rd Nov 2020, 02:22
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wheels_down View Post
Contact Approach

Regardless, still earns them tea and biscuits with the CP soon thereafter. Not normally pleasant conversations.
Nothing could be further from the truth...Other than a meeting with the safety folks facilitated through the union and perhaps some retraining (unless someone lies) there won’t be any “tea and biscuits” with the CP! As long as you fess up to your screw ups it’s pretty non punitive over here. Most 90% of screw ups over here In the US that would land you a letter of warning when I was an expat in the gulf would be deidentified and used solely for trend analysis and highlighted by the training department in the next recurrent, you wouldn’t even so much as get a phonecall.

Last edited by VThokie2; 23rd Nov 2020 at 02:53.
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Old 23rd Nov 2020, 03:48
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Spooky 2;

i don’t think it’s SOP, but rather the minimum. That’s when I engage it in the sim. I’m pretty sure most airlines and authorities recommend using automation to reduce workload in high workload environments.
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Old 23rd Nov 2020, 12:22
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Javicomet View Post
early flaps 1 retraction by PM that triggers “airspeed low” caution, PF pitches down to gain speed, PM freaks out and selects flaps 5 (placard speed 245kts) and exceeds Flaps Speed triggering the siren.. 🤷🏻‍♂️
That is plausible. There is a gate to prevent(or at least slow down) rapid, inadvertent flap 5 selection from the up position making it less likely to be selected inadvertently.

But as I like to say when it comes to aviation incidents.....If it can somehow happen, it has happened.
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