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Air India Runway Excursion

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Air India Runway Excursion

Old 8th Aug 2020, 18:02
  #81 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by rohitkapoor181

Amazing how you've managed to resolve the priorities of a fairly complex nation in one sentence. You might as well say remove Donald Trump to reverse global warming. Please let's stick to inputs on the topic at hand and leave such comments/conversations to Twitter.
What are your thoughts on how to improve the Indian aviation infrastructure?
The money needs to come from somewhere?
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Old 8th Aug 2020, 19:40
  #82 (permalink)  
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Privatize, the money will come - an airport like Calicut with a 3mio+ pax/yr would surely be a profitable bet. Governments shouldn't be in this business apart from framing and enforcing regulation, but that's a personal opinion.
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Old 8th Aug 2020, 20:04
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Originally Posted by alf5071h
White Knight, TT,
CRM, HF, etc. It is difficult to define these terms, thus they can mean different things to different people - cultures, context
True. But it seems to work here at Emirates, what, with 150 plus nationalities sharing the flightdeck!
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Old 8th Aug 2020, 20:15
  #84 (permalink)  
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I think Monsoons have been a part of India’s geographic reality for at least ...
Well, for a very long time.
You’d think grooved runways would be an easy sell for Indian airlines to their government for at least ...
Well, a very long time.
Yet, that doesn’t seem to get much traction.
Looking at India’s aviation safety record I have to wonder, like Pakistan, if their might also be licencing issues contributing to that record.
From my past experience, I’d be suspicious of ex-IAF ‘Officers’ and their historic nepotism. Not to mention their actual competence level.
Until more is known I wouldn’t paint this Captain with that brush, but I will reserve judgement.

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Old 8th Aug 2020, 20:15
  #85 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by flightleader
May I humbly request all to stop questioning the pilots decisions in this case.
The first thing that stands out here would be the decision making! Let's not beat around the bush....
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Old 8th Aug 2020, 20:48
  #86 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by riobo
..........India's airports are crap like most of the rest of its infrastructure, true........
........Factually, most of India's wasted resources which could help remedy the infrastructure are spent on government mismanagement of funds, not on space.........if one is actually interested in looking at the facts rather than in spewing frankly quite ugly and disgusting prejudice.
As India is a democratic country, it is up to the elected politicians to decide how their resources are spent.
It is up to the electorate to decide which parties they vote for.
So you disagree; that is absolutely fine. There is no need to be somewhat melodramatic. There will be many views posted that you disagree with. Calm down. Think of your blood pressure, as this is purporting to be your first posting. Stick with the facts, and keep emotions under control.

Tell us what your formula for aviation improvement?

Last edited by parkfell; 8th Aug 2020 at 21:06.
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Old 8th Aug 2020, 21:43
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Three questions that should be addressed in the investigation;
What methods did Air India Express use to promulgate SAFO 19003 to flight crew?
Was the accident crew aware of the existence of the SAFO?
Did the accident crew receive any training or guidance related to the SAFO?
SAFO 19003

Purpose: This SAFO cancels and replaces SAFO 15009 and warns airplane operators and pilots that the advisory data for wet runway landings may not provide a safe stopping margin especially in conditions of Moderate or Heavy Rain.
Recommended Action: Directors of Safety and Directors of Operations (Part 121); Directors of Operations (parts 135, and 125), Program Managers, (Part 91K), and Pilots (Part 91) should ensure pilots verify, prior to initiating an approach, that the aircraft can stop within the Landing Distance Available using a RwyCC of “2” whenever there is the likelihood of moderate or greater rain on a smooth runway or heavy rain on a grooved/PFC runway.
A quick OPT calc using a flat runway and CC2 gives an auto brake stopping distance exceeding 3000m.
Is every 737 pilot fully aware of this SAFO issued in 2019?
If you say “SAFO 19003” to a 737 Captain they should immediately know what you are talking about......is that the case?
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Old 8th Aug 2020, 21:47
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Willie Everlearn

Yes of course it does. Just witnessing their arrogant attitudes (not all of them) in the airport going through immigration or on the radio speaks volumes.
I’ve heard Indian turboprops saying they don’t need any spacing behind large jets.
Some of the more senior pilots got others to carry their bags up the stairs of the aircraft and you have really made me think about the nepotism.
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Old 8th Aug 2020, 23:37
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First reports on what may have gone wrong


The Air India Express Boeing 737-800 aircraft which fell into a gorge at Kozhikode airport had landed more than 1 kilometre down the length of the runway in windy and rainy conditions.

Sources within the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), the aviation watchdog, which is leading the investigations into the accident, have confirmed that this is a key factor that they are looking into before reaching a conclusion on whether the remaining length of the runway was sufficient for the aircraft to have stopped safely. What is clear is that the runway surface was wet, a factor that would have impacted the braking performance of the aircraft after it touched down.

Unable to decelerate sufficiently, the Boeing 737 went off the end of the edge of the runway, fell 35 feet into a gorge and slammed into the airport's perimeter wall before coming to a full stop

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Old 8th Aug 2020, 23:43
  #90 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SOPS

Really??? At both airlines I worked for.. TS within 10 nm of the field .. no take off or landing allowed.
No take off. I agree.
No landing? Not so much. With radar, you try to make safe, cautious decisions. Note - I NEVER advocated flying through a cell. Not all heavy rain comes out of a cell.

With those rules, your airline may as well rule out flying in the tropics during the wet season.
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Old 8th Aug 2020, 23:48
  #91 (permalink)  
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Well, not necessarily. My airline does not identify the regulatory source of operational guidance or policy. So while we are aware of and adhere to the revised performance data, this is the first time I have encountered that nomenclature.
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Old 8th Aug 2020, 23:50
  #92 (permalink)  
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Let's await speculation for the accident investigation results?

Another accident that simply didn't need to happen. This event once again underscores the many decade need for GLS/GBAS, LAND3/AIII, RNP, and being able to land into the wind, ...perhaps also along with the critical need for assured runway rubber deposit and groove/PFC maintenance, in addition to considering installation of EMAS at critical runway locations.

The B737NG is a terrific safe jet when operated as designed, on any adequately maintained runway. Though tailwinds ought to typically be avoided, to assure margin for unexpected tailwinds when necessary, I've safely, successfully, and easily landed it many times in well over 25 kts of direct tailwind, during specific flight tests, even to up-slope gradient runways at elevations up to ~6,100 MSL.

We simply need to give this flight crew the benefit of the doubt, until the investigation is completed, and all the facts known. They gave their lives doing their best, and it's the least we owe their families.

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Old 9th Aug 2020, 00:21
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On aviation infrastructure, riobo, you've made a category error with regard to the U.S. budget. The problem isn't imbalance of priorities, rather it's a kind of dilution or diversion. Every Congressional Committee and Subcommittee empowers legislators (by virtue of their being rostered on them) to influence who spends the funds and how their performance is monitored, the result being akin to the "200 Spielbergs" situation observed when Chicago airport cops dragged a passenger off a flight a few years ago. Substitute less than top-drawer competence for cellphone vid cameras.

The ISRO budget hasn't been claimed here as wasted or mismanaged (I didn't claim that and don't see that parkfell did, either). But it's a matter of priority. With runways you admit are not up to some standard we all could agree does apply, and with the geographic and climatological predicates unchanging, you're still contending that at least some of the rockets and satellite funding should not be reallocated? - that this should not even be considered? (Not to dwell on anti-satellite tests, but....)

And solution proposed by rohitkapoor181, to allow and encourage privitization, isn't that significantly inconsistent with what your post identified as a "poor" legal and regulatory framework?

Last edited by WillowRun 6-3; 9th Aug 2020 at 02:11. Reason: wrong attribution previously of privitization as solving things
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Old 9th Aug 2020, 01:26
  #94 (permalink)  
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The recorders should be in excellent shape - do they have them yet?
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Old 9th Aug 2020, 01:58
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Yes, the Civil Aviation Minister said in his Saturday press conference that the CVR and FDR were recovered almost immediately after the mishap.

India's Aviation Minister Hardeep Singh Puri visited the scene of the crash on Saturday, where he announced the recovery of the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder, which could prove crucial to investigating the crash. He praised the lead pilot and said it was too early to say what the precise cause of the accident was.
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Old 9th Aug 2020, 02:02
  #96 (permalink)  
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Two things come to mind.

Regardless of ability, landing 1000m into a limiting contaminated runway with a tailwind and ravine at the end is time for a go around.
These are the mistakes we are paid not to make, but mistakes are human and accidents happen.

Why on earth was this runway not grooved ?

Did people just pocket the cash and hope for the best ?

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Old 9th Aug 2020, 03:04
  #97 (permalink)  
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My bad for not being precise enough with my words earlier.

At this very moment, the facts are yet to fully surface. Instead of saying all the ‘the pilots should have done or should not have done’, let’s just explore possible contributing factors besides pilot error. Every aviation accident/incident I came across had some form of human error. Pilots, dispatcher, ATC, mechanics, etc. They flew the way that got themselves killed, no doubt that was an error. The investigation will eventually elaborate all the details.

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Old 9th Aug 2020, 03:15
  #98 (permalink)  
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how about we explore all possible factors, including pilot error? What does the outcome of whether someone dies or survives have to do with factual information? Don’t want to sound cold, but regardless of the outcome, the errors that were made are facts.
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Old 9th Aug 2020, 03:16
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I also wonder how you could switch off an engine to save lives? At what point? I’d prefer he be using max reverse right up until A complete stop. If he managed to shut them down after that point then good stuff. But how would that line up with him not surviving?
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Old 9th Aug 2020, 03:27
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Personal and purely theorical thought: I donít know if shutting down the engines and consequently losing all the reverse thrust is worth the reduced risk of post crash fire. I am not so sure that in a few seconds the temperatures of the engine core would drop below a safe level, not to mention the fact that other sources can start a fire (sparks cause by friction, severed wires, other objects hit by the plane, etc.). Iím curious to see in the report if the engines were actually shut down and how this affected the consequences of the impact.
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