Air India Runway Excursion
Longtimelurker
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: killington Vt
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 70 Mustang
It’s not the aircraft, it’s how far down the runway the two up front put it on the runway.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: An Island Province
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WHBM,
'Yet another 737-800 significant runway overrun.'
'… the 737-800 has a spike of serious runway overruns, measured against other comparable types'
Being mindful of human weakness in seeing patterns and forming associations, it is worth asking how 737 operations compare with other types.
The industry has made great effort to revise landing performance and simplify its use; does Boeing supply FOLD data to operators, if not who else would.
The use of operational landing performance (OLD) is still without regulatory mandate.
Even with more realistic data it still has to be used, applied in context; easier lookup tables, comparisons with next worse runway conditions at airports with dubious runway condition reporting, runway surface - type, wind limits and combination of factors (wet - no tailwind, max brake / reverse).
Operator policy; are crews encouraged to adjust autobrake setting, use of max reverse, add more than the minimum distance factor, to deviate from an SOP mindset.
'Yet another 737-800 significant runway overrun.'
'… the 737-800 has a spike of serious runway overruns, measured against other comparable types'
Being mindful of human weakness in seeing patterns and forming associations, it is worth asking how 737 operations compare with other types.
The industry has made great effort to revise landing performance and simplify its use; does Boeing supply FOLD data to operators, if not who else would.
The use of operational landing performance (OLD) is still without regulatory mandate.
Even with more realistic data it still has to be used, applied in context; easier lookup tables, comparisons with next worse runway conditions at airports with dubious runway condition reporting, runway surface - type, wind limits and combination of factors (wet - no tailwind, max brake / reverse).
Operator policy; are crews encouraged to adjust autobrake setting, use of max reverse, add more than the minimum distance factor, to deviate from an SOP mindset.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: home
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by BA_Baracas
Never been to Kerala.
any particular reason they chose 10 instead of 28 with that wind though?
any particular reason they chose 10 instead of 28 with that wind though?
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bear Island
Posts: 585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Brookmans Park
Long time since I flew the 738 but I believe that a Vapp of 176 would activate the LRS and prevent it flap 40 landing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: europe
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'Yet another 737-800 significant runway overrun.'
'… the 737-800 has a spike of serious runway overruns, measured against other comparable types'
Are you surprised, being the most populous type in worldwide service? Not the aircraft.....
'… the 737-800 has a spike of serious runway overruns, measured against other comparable types'
Are you surprised, being the most populous type in worldwide service? Not the aircraft.....
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
de minimus non curat lex
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,442
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Landing with a significant tailwind on a flooded runway..........another rich CRM unfortunate accident which hopefully will educate the next generation as to why it is never a good position to find yourself in.
For those who mention a ‘spike’ in 737-800 over runs ~ if you apply the performance criteria correctly, they wouldn’t occur. Chance your arm and random tragic unfortunate events will occur.
For those who mention a ‘spike’ in 737-800 over runs ~ if you apply the performance criteria correctly, they wouldn’t occur. Chance your arm and random tragic unfortunate events will occur.
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Out of a Suitcase
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by BA_Baracas
Never been to Kerala.
any particular reason they chose 10 instead of 28 with that wind though?
any particular reason they chose 10 instead of 28 with that wind though?
During the go-around we exited the shower and were in CAVOK conditions. We flew the approach for RWY 10 and landed.
Too early to say if something similar happened to this flight.
RWY 10 is initially level then has a significant downslope.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,899
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Dannyboy39
How many wet season excursions is that now in India in recent years? Becoming a significant concern.
Big questions on safety, pilot training after 5 Indian planes veer off runway in 3 day The aircraft involved are SpiceJet and Air India Express. Half the incidents occurred in wet weather, for which airlines have to ensure their pilots undergo specific training.
3 July, 2019 9:30 am ISTNew Delhi: When the Pune-Kolkata SpiceJet aircraft, SG-275, veered off the runway at the Kolkata airport Tuesday, it was the fifth such instance in just 72 hours, between 30 June and 2 July.
It was also the sixth such incident of an Indian airline going off the runway in the last three months — the first of this spate of accidents occurred on 29 April, when a SpiceJet aircraft, SG-946, a Boeing 737-800 headed from Delhi to Shirdi, overshot the runway upon landing.
While there have been no casualties due to the mishaps, the sheer frequency of these accidents has raised questions on safety standards, particularly within SpiceJet, and on pilot training.
Of the six incidents, four aircraft belonged to SpiceJet, while the other two are Air India Express (AIE) planes.
ThePrint reached SpiceJet spokesperson Tushar Srivastava for a response on the incidents but he refused to comment while the CEO of Air India Express was unavailable for comment.
The focus on pilot training has arisen as at least half of the incidents, including the latest one in Kolkata, occurred in wet weather, for which, airlines have to ensure that their pilots undergo the mandatory monsoon-related ALAR (Approach and Landing Accident Reduction) training. ThePrint takes a look at the spate of runway mishaps and the questions they have raised.[/color]
The landing occurred during a heavy downpour. The passengers disembarked through the aircraft’s stairs; there were no injuries. The airport was closed overnight while the aircraft sustained minor damage.
The flight was headed from Dammam in Saudi Arabia and had 180 people on board. The aircraft remained on the ground for about six-and-a-half hours and then returned to service.
“This points to very poor training and safety standards at SpiceJet and AIE,” said Captain Mohan Ranganathan, an aviation safety consultant and a former instructor of the Boeing 737 specialising in wet runway operations training.
“It also points to DGCA turning a blind eye to serious safety issues. The DGCA is being a facilitator for airlines and not a regulator.”
Ranganathan added that the DGCA should have grounded SpiceJet and conducted an independent safety audit by bringing in an outside agency. “The airlines appear to have ignored the mandatory monsoon-related ALAR training. The spate of incidents point to very serious failure,” he said.
“If the ministry of civil aviation and the DGCA care about passenger lives, they should ground the airlines that are incapable of safe operations during the monsoons.”
DGCA officials did not respond to the queries sent by The Print. This report will be updated when they do.
Sudhakara Reddy, president of the Air Passengers Association of India, wondered if airlines are forgoing safety to keep their aircraft in the air. “The latest is the fifth such incident in the last five days. Is it because of a rush to train pilots and keep the fleet in the sky without rest or proper training?” he asked
Another aviation expert, Mark Martin, said the “only solution” to the runway incidents was better crew training.
“Several factors are involved in such incidents — the inability to brake, unstable approach and the weather,” he said. “There is a lot of pressure on a 70-tonne aircraft flying at a speed of 300 km per hour while landing. The only solution is better crew training. It is definitely troublesome and alarming.”
3 July, 2019 9:30 am ISTNew Delhi: When the Pune-Kolkata SpiceJet aircraft, SG-275, veered off the runway at the Kolkata airport Tuesday, it was the fifth such instance in just 72 hours, between 30 June and 2 July.
It was also the sixth such incident of an Indian airline going off the runway in the last three months — the first of this spate of accidents occurred on 29 April, when a SpiceJet aircraft, SG-946, a Boeing 737-800 headed from Delhi to Shirdi, overshot the runway upon landing.
While there have been no casualties due to the mishaps, the sheer frequency of these accidents has raised questions on safety standards, particularly within SpiceJet, and on pilot training.
Of the six incidents, four aircraft belonged to SpiceJet, while the other two are Air India Express (AIE) planes.
ThePrint reached SpiceJet spokesperson Tushar Srivastava for a response on the incidents but he refused to comment while the CEO of Air India Express was unavailable for comment.
The focus on pilot training has arisen as at least half of the incidents, including the latest one in Kolkata, occurred in wet weather, for which, airlines have to ensure that their pilots undergo the mandatory monsoon-related ALAR (Approach and Landing Accident Reduction) training. ThePrint takes a look at the spate of runway mishaps and the questions they have raised.[/color]
The Shirdi overrun, 29 April
The SpiceJet Boeing 737-800 that overshot the runway at Shirdi on 29 April had 164 people on board; all of them were safe. The aircraft overshot the runway by at least 50 m and came to a stop with all its gear on soft ground. The aircraft, which was headed from Delhi, was towed back to the apron.The Mangalore mishap, 30 June
An Air India Express Boeing 737-800, Flight IX-384, on 30 June veered straight off the runway at Mangalore airport and came to a stop just ahead of the end of the runway after its nose gear went over a drainage ditch. All 181 people on board the aircraft, which had made its way from Dubai in the United Arab Emirates, disembarked safely through the mobile stairs. The aircraft received minor damage.SpiceJet on soft ground in Surat, 30 June
A SpiceJet De Havilland Dash 8-400, a smaller aircraft ferrying 43 passengers and four crew members from Bhopal to Surat, significantly overran the runway at Surat on 30 June. The aircraft, Flight SG-3722, came to a stop on soft ground just short and to the right of the localiser antenna, about 270 m past the end of the runway.The landing occurred during a heavy downpour. The passengers disembarked through the aircraft’s stairs; there were no injuries. The airport was closed overnight while the aircraft sustained minor damage.
Kozhikode ‘hard’ landing, 1 July
An Air India Express Boeing 737-800, Flight IX-382, landed hard at the Kozhikode airport on 1 July, with its tail making contact with the runway before it rolled on without further incident and taxied to the apron. There were no injuries.The flight was headed from Dammam in Saudi Arabia and had 180 people on board. The aircraft remained on the ground for about six-and-a-half hours and then returned to service.
SpiceJet overshoots runway in Mumbai, 1 July
This is yet another instance of a SpiceJet aircraft overshooting the runway in wet weather. A SpiceJet Boeing 737-800, Flight SG-6237, on its way from Jaipur ran off the rain-slickened runway 27 at the Mumbai International Airport on 1 July forcing the closure of the main runway. Passengers were deplaned normally. There was no injury to either the passengers or the crew.No respite for SpiceJet in Kolkata, 2 July
The latest runway incident involving SpiceJet came Tuesday when SG-275 from Pune to Kolkata landed on runway 19L and veered off towards the right due to heavy rain. Pilots took corrective action immediately to get the aircraft onto the centre line but four-runway edge lights were damaged. Nobody was injured in the incident.DGCA should review safety standards: Experts
The series of runway incidents have prompted experts to raise questions on the training of pilots and safety standards being maintained by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), the country’s aviation watchdog.“This points to very poor training and safety standards at SpiceJet and AIE,” said Captain Mohan Ranganathan, an aviation safety consultant and a former instructor of the Boeing 737 specialising in wet runway operations training.
“It also points to DGCA turning a blind eye to serious safety issues. The DGCA is being a facilitator for airlines and not a regulator.”
Ranganathan added that the DGCA should have grounded SpiceJet and conducted an independent safety audit by bringing in an outside agency. “The airlines appear to have ignored the mandatory monsoon-related ALAR training. The spate of incidents point to very serious failure,” he said.
“If the ministry of civil aviation and the DGCA care about passenger lives, they should ground the airlines that are incapable of safe operations during the monsoons.”
DGCA officials did not respond to the queries sent by The Print. This report will be updated when they do.
Sudhakara Reddy, president of the Air Passengers Association of India, wondered if airlines are forgoing safety to keep their aircraft in the air. “The latest is the fifth such incident in the last five days. Is it because of a rush to train pilots and keep the fleet in the sky without rest or proper training?” he asked
Another aviation expert, Mark Martin, said the “only solution” to the runway incidents was better crew training.
“Several factors are involved in such incidents — the inability to brake, unstable approach and the weather,” he said. “There is a lot of pressure on a 70-tonne aircraft flying at a speed of 300 km per hour while landing. The only solution is better crew training. It is definitely troublesome and alarming.”
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,899
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
More on the late 'pilot' of IX1344 from India Today.
Air India plane crash: IAF pilot, Sword of Honour recipient Captain DV Sathe among 19 dead in Kerala tragedyCaptain DV Sathe along with his co-pilot and 17 passengers lost their lives when the Air India Express Boeing 737 from Dubai to Kozhikode (Calicut) overshot the runway at Karipur airport on Friday.New DelhiAugust 8, 2020 UPDATED: August 8, 2020 01:30 IST
Captain Dipak Vasant Sathe, pilot of the Air India Express flight (AXB1344, B737) died when the aircraft skidded off the runway at Kozhikode International Airport in Kerala on Friday night. As many as 16 people, including Captain Sathe and the co-pilot, have been confirmed dead by authorities.
Unconfirmed reports are now coming in suggesting that Captain Sathe turned off the engine right before the crash, saving the lives of his passengers and the cabin crew. Preliminary inputs indicate that the fuselage broke into two after the aircraft overshot the runway during its second attempt to land at the Karipur 'tabletop' airport.
There were a total of 190 passengers onboard, including 174 adults and 10 infants apart from four cabin crew members and two pilots. As per Air India Express, the flight was returning to Karipur airport from Dubai as part of the 'Vande Bharat' repatriation initiative.
A former test pilot with the Indian Air Force (IAF), Captain DV Sathe was an experienced aerial operator. He had flown the Airbus 310 for Air India before moving to Air India Express to fly a Boeing 737. Captain Sathe was also the recipient of a Sword of Honour at the Air Force Academy (AFA).
An alumnus of the National Defence Academy (NDA) in Pune, Captain Sathe stood first in the 58th course of Pune NDA from Juliet Squadron. He passed out from AFA with the 'Sword of Honour' in 1981. Apart from being an accomplished fighter pilot and a HAL test pilot, he was also an exceptional squash player.
His body along with that of his co-pilot are being kept at the MIMS hospital in Kozhikode.
Captain Dipak Vasant Sathe, pilot of the Air India Express flight (AXB1344, B737) died when the aircraft skidded off the runway at Kozhikode International Airport in Kerala on Friday night. As many as 16 people, including Captain Sathe and the co-pilot, have been confirmed dead by authorities.
Unconfirmed reports are now coming in suggesting that Captain Sathe turned off the engine right before the crash, saving the lives of his passengers and the cabin crew. Preliminary inputs indicate that the fuselage broke into two after the aircraft overshot the runway during its second attempt to land at the Karipur 'tabletop' airport.
There were a total of 190 passengers onboard, including 174 adults and 10 infants apart from four cabin crew members and two pilots. As per Air India Express, the flight was returning to Karipur airport from Dubai as part of the 'Vande Bharat' repatriation initiative.
A former test pilot with the Indian Air Force (IAF), Captain DV Sathe was an experienced aerial operator. He had flown the Airbus 310 for Air India before moving to Air India Express to fly a Boeing 737. Captain Sathe was also the recipient of a Sword of Honour at the Air Force Academy (AFA).
An alumnus of the National Defence Academy (NDA) in Pune, Captain Sathe stood first in the 58th course of Pune NDA from Juliet Squadron. He passed out from AFA with the 'Sword of Honour' in 1981. Apart from being an accomplished fighter pilot and a HAL test pilot, he was also an exceptional squash player.
His body along with that of his co-pilot are being kept at the MIMS hospital in Kozhikode.
Psychophysiological entity
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Tweet Rob_Benham Famous author. Well, slightly famous.
Age: 83
Posts: 3,162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So who's going to be the first to talk about the people's requirement to be on that flight?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
127 Pilot's Course.
Wing Commander Deepak Vasant Sathe 16370 F(P)
Commissioned: 11 Jun 1981 Course: 127 Course
Service End: Retired on 30 Jun 2003
Sword of Honour and Test Pilot
Wing Commander Deepak Vasant Sathe 16370 F(P)
Commissioned: 11 Jun 1981 Course: 127 Course
Service End: Retired on 30 Jun 2003
Sword of Honour and Test Pilot
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: NY
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by gear lever
'Yet another 737-800 significant runway overrun.'
'… the 737-800 has a spike of serious runway overruns, measured against other comparable types'
Are you surprised, being the most populous type in worldwide service? Not the aircraft.....
'… the 737-800 has a spike of serious runway overruns, measured against other comparable types'
Are you surprised, being the most populous type in worldwide service? Not the aircraft.....
There are 4,900 737-800s built, and there have been 7 runway performance related hull loss accidents in the past 2 years.
There are 9,400 A320 (all variants) built, and there have been 0 runway performance related hull loss accidents in the past 2 years.
The Boeing statistical analysis ended in 2017, back then these 2 types had about same safety record, I'm curious how they compare now.
Again, it's ultimately the PIC's responsibility in most of these accidents, but the difference in rate of overruns between the 738 and 320 has grown increasingly notable in recent years; again, like alf5071h said, maybe it's just the mind forming patterns.
Lack of fire brings up the possibility of lack of fuel, possibly unable to divert after the second approach. Speed obviously too high as well, especially given the conditions. Weather reporting and forecasting in India isn’t the best I’ve encountered.
The weather on arrival was pretty well set in and on the minima, not something that holding for half an hour would take care of. Whilst it was worth trying a single approach, a go around should have been planned as a diversion rather than a second attempt.
Lack of recency possibly a factor as well.
The weather on arrival was pretty well set in and on the minima, not something that holding for half an hour would take care of. Whilst it was worth trying a single approach, a go around should have been planned as a diversion rather than a second attempt.
Lack of recency possibly a factor as well.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Downunder
Posts: 426
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suspect the aircraft type may be of little or no relevance:
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/t...905-1999-11-30
Alleged eye-witness account:
https://sputniknews.com/india/202008...with-landing-/
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/t...905-1999-11-30
Alleged eye-witness account:
https://sputniknews.com/india/202008...with-landing-/
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For refrence, I did a quick calc of the landing distance required with the given conditions and at 60T, thought quite possibly it was heavier given the load and the likely baggage count. I'm not a Boeing chap so these are probably wildly wrong so perhaps someone can refine them, but at the least it seems porentially quite tight given the 9350ft Landing Distance Available. There was TSRA on the METAR shortly after they touched down so BA could have easily dropped significantly.
I assume they went for RWY 10 due to a thunderstorm parked over the approach for 28. They should have probably gone for RWY 10 somewhere else!
ILS 10 plate for refrence.
From the Indian AIP https://aim-india.aai.aero/eaip-v2//...VOCL-en-GB.pdf
I assume they went for RWY 10 due to a thunderstorm parked over the approach for 28. They should have probably gone for RWY 10 somewhere else!
ILS 10 plate for refrence.
From the Indian AIP https://aim-india.aai.aero/eaip-v2//...VOCL-en-GB.pdf
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps another reason that they may have elected to use RWY10 for the second approach is that it has lower minimums.
As people are mentioning the possibility of low fuel state, then the scenario of a missed approach to the west with a return into the east (with the benefit of greater chance of a successful approach) would be something that might have made sense to a skipper under pressure.
As people are mentioning the possibility of low fuel state, then the scenario of a missed approach to the west with a return into the east (with the benefit of greater chance of a successful approach) would be something that might have made sense to a skipper under pressure.
