United Airlines, Chapter 11 status
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Sure UAL is in trouble because of bad management, but the bottom line is always mostly affected by the number of bums in seats. Sep 11 did a lot of damage, but the major reduction in passengers flying (down around 20% since the WTC attack) is due to the ham-fisted and stupid airport security policies of the federal government since that time. Potential passengers are being turned away from flying because of the hassles, inconvenience and delays. And it is about to get worse, with the new checked baggage rules.
A more intelligent approach could allow for increased and practical security without alienating those who pay the salaries of those who work in the industry, and allow for the survival of UAL and the other airlines that are threatened with financial disaster.
But intelligence and government are two words that do not go together.
A more intelligent approach could allow for increased and practical security without alienating those who pay the salaries of those who work in the industry, and allow for the survival of UAL and the other airlines that are threatened with financial disaster.
But intelligence and government are two words that do not go together.
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United Falling
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2545065.stm
Looks like despite a lot of hard work from all sides, this lumbering Giant is finally on its way out.
Looks like despite a lot of hard work from all sides, this lumbering Giant is finally on its way out.
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United Airlines appears headed for the largest bankruptcy filing in airline industry history.
The best chance the world's second-biggest carrier had to avoid a Chapter 11 filing vanished Wednesday when a government
board rejected its bid for $1.8 billion in federal loan guarantees.
Chief executive Glenn Tilton tried to reassure passengers and United's 83,000 employees, saying the airline won't shut down.
"Whatever course we chart, it should be emphatically clear that United will continue to fly," he said, without offering specifics.
But barring an unlikely turn of events, that course will almost certainly take it to federal bankruptcy court as soon as this week.
Cash-starved United has said for months that without government backing, it couldn't get the $2 billion private loan it needs to avoid
bankruptcy. It faces $920 million in debt payments due next week, which would wipe out most of its fast-dwindling cash.
Investors and Wall Street see it as increasingly inevitable, driving the stock of United parent UAL Corp. down 56 percent in
after-hours trading to $1.37 per share the lowest level in decades.
Further sealing United's fate, its mechanics canceled a vote scheduled Thursday on $700 million in wage cuts the carrier said it
needed immediately to stay out of bankruptcy. Union leaders said the panel's decision had rendered the vote moot.
ABC
The best chance the world's second-biggest carrier had to avoid a Chapter 11 filing vanished Wednesday when a government
board rejected its bid for $1.8 billion in federal loan guarantees.
Chief executive Glenn Tilton tried to reassure passengers and United's 83,000 employees, saying the airline won't shut down.
"Whatever course we chart, it should be emphatically clear that United will continue to fly," he said, without offering specifics.
But barring an unlikely turn of events, that course will almost certainly take it to federal bankruptcy court as soon as this week.
Cash-starved United has said for months that without government backing, it couldn't get the $2 billion private loan it needs to avoid
bankruptcy. It faces $920 million in debt payments due next week, which would wipe out most of its fast-dwindling cash.
Investors and Wall Street see it as increasingly inevitable, driving the stock of United parent UAL Corp. down 56 percent in
after-hours trading to $1.37 per share the lowest level in decades.
Further sealing United's fate, its mechanics canceled a vote scheduled Thursday on $700 million in wage cuts the carrier said it
needed immediately to stay out of bankruptcy. Union leaders said the panel's decision had rendered the vote moot.
ABC
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Not so fast. I predict UAL will reorganize and survive. They've suffered from some shockingly incompetent managment under Mr. Goodwin and his previous dunderheads.
That is spoken from someone who works for a competitor and would stand to gain substancially if UAL was to go out of business.
UAL will survive.
That is spoken from someone who works for a competitor and would stand to gain substancially if UAL was to go out of business.
UAL will survive.
Thread Starter
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>>If they fold, what happens to their valuable Heathrow Slots? I presume Continental/Delta may be rubbing their hands.<<
Just as United rubbed their hands to get the LHR slots from Pan Am a decade ago. United campaigned vigorously against aid for Pan Am. "Let the market work" they said...
Of course, they will now claim the government should rush in with a bailout because UAL is just too big to go out of business. Right.
United used to be a helluva airline... but times change I suppose.
Just as United rubbed their hands to get the LHR slots from Pan Am a decade ago. United campaigned vigorously against aid for Pan Am. "Let the market work" they said...
Of course, they will now claim the government should rush in with a bailout because UAL is just too big to go out of business. Right.
United used to be a helluva airline... but times change I suppose.
Oh well.
Isn't it nice how the press simply loves the huge problems at United, along with some Ppruners, who can always try to blame the unions for ian airline's troubles, no matter how many causes?
Were there not so much dirty laundry there, they would be forced to find it elsewhere, just like the song by Don Henley (former Eagles).
Isn't it nice how the press simply loves the huge problems at United, along with some Ppruners, who can always try to blame the unions for ian airline's troubles, no matter how many causes?
Were there not so much dirty laundry there, they would be forced to find it elsewhere, just like the song by Don Henley (former Eagles).
Last edited by Ignition Override; 7th Dec 2002 at 20:21.
Today?
UK media is widely reporting that UAL will file today (Monday 9th) and that initially there will be little or no effect on services. As it is still early morning in New York any announcement may come after the NYSE opens......
Oh Dear
From The BBC
United Airlines (UAL), the world's second largest carrier, has filed for bankruptcy protection in a US court, marking the air travel sector's biggest corporate collapse to date.
The move is designed to give the airline temporary protection from its creditors while it puts together a restructuring plan.
The cash-strapped airline had been expected to file for bankruptcy ever since last-ditch attempts to secure an emergency loan from the government fell through last week.
UAL had been seeking a loan worth $1.8bn (£1.15bn) from the Air Transport Stabilisation Board (ATSB), set up to help US airlines in the wake of September 11.
Eleventh hour
The company has reportedly landed a deal with its lenders, including CIT Group, JP Morgan Chase, Citibank and Bank One, which will provide the $1.5bn required to keep the company flying while a restructuring takes place.
UAL is 55% owned by staff, with representatives of its pilots and mechanics occupying seats on its board.
United staff have been asked to accept pay cuts
"We think that bankruptcy filing is probably the best thing that could happen to UAL," said analysts at Deutsche Bank Securities earlier on Monday.
UAL has been seeking wage and benefit concessions from its staff in a bid to reduce its costs and mounting debt pile.
Rising debts
UAL lost $2.1bn last year and is expected to lose $2.5bn this year.
It has $920m in debt repayments due in the next week.
Last week, the group's shares lost over two-thirds of their value following news of the loan rejection, ending the week at just 93 cents.
United Airlines' is the second collapse in the US airline sector this year after US Airways filed for bankruptcy protection in August.
United Airlines (UAL), the world's second largest carrier, has filed for bankruptcy protection in a US court, marking the air travel sector's biggest corporate collapse to date.
The move is designed to give the airline temporary protection from its creditors while it puts together a restructuring plan.
The cash-strapped airline had been expected to file for bankruptcy ever since last-ditch attempts to secure an emergency loan from the government fell through last week.
UAL had been seeking a loan worth $1.8bn (£1.15bn) from the Air Transport Stabilisation Board (ATSB), set up to help US airlines in the wake of September 11.
Eleventh hour
The company has reportedly landed a deal with its lenders, including CIT Group, JP Morgan Chase, Citibank and Bank One, which will provide the $1.5bn required to keep the company flying while a restructuring takes place.
UAL is 55% owned by staff, with representatives of its pilots and mechanics occupying seats on its board.
United staff have been asked to accept pay cuts
"We think that bankruptcy filing is probably the best thing that could happen to UAL," said analysts at Deutsche Bank Securities earlier on Monday.
UAL has been seeking wage and benefit concessions from its staff in a bid to reduce its costs and mounting debt pile.
Rising debts
UAL lost $2.1bn last year and is expected to lose $2.5bn this year.
It has $920m in debt repayments due in the next week.
Last week, the group's shares lost over two-thirds of their value following news of the loan rejection, ending the week at just 93 cents.
United Airlines' is the second collapse in the US airline sector this year after US Airways filed for bankruptcy protection in August.
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Mon December 9, 2002 07:51 AM ET
By Kathy Fieweger
CHICAGO (Reuters) - United Airlines filed for bankruptcy on Monday after a weak economy, high costs and low air fares left the world's No. 2 airline with too much debt and not enough cash.
United, a unit of UAL Corp. UAL.N , will continue to fly worldwide as it attempts to reorganize under protection from the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in the Northern District of Illinois.
United, with about 83,000 employees, had two of its Boeing BA.N jets commandeered in the devastating attacks on New York and Washington on Sept. 11, 2001. Since then it has posted nearly $4 billion in losses, with no end in sight to the red ink.
The bankruptcy is the largest ever in the global aviation industry, which remains mired in a historic money-losing downturn since Sept. 11.
Another big U.S. airline, Arlington, Virginia-based US Airways Group UAWGQ.OB , filed for bankruptcy in August, and several smaller carriers have shut down altogether.
GOVERNMENT SAID NO
For United, which has a history of labor troubles and some of the highest wage costs in the industry, the downturn has proved too difficult to navigate. The U.S. government last week rejected the airline's bid for federal loan guarantees, which had been its last hope for securing fresh capital.
Sources familiar with the situation said the government's rejection, which angered unions and some politicians, came despite a last-minute offer of an additional $500 million in annual wage concessions by a group of unions.
Leaders of United's key unions agreed to a total of $5.2 billion in wage cuts over 5-1/2 years, but rank-and-file mechanics rejected their $700 million portion the night before Thanksgiving, dealing the bailout plan a blow.
United is 55 percent employee-owned, and the pilots and machinists each have a seat on the company's board after a 1994 employee stock ownership plan was put in place. A simple majority vote from the board was required to approve a bankruptcy filing. Bankruptcy usually leaves a company's common stock worthless.
UAL shares were trading at 55 cents in pre-open dealings on Monday, down from a Friday close at 93 cents on the New York Stock Exchange.
FINANCING IN PLACE
United has arranged with a group of banks for $1.5 billion in financing to see it through bankruptcy. At the final hour, GE Capital GE.N pulled out of the group of lenders and was replaced by CIT Group CIT.N , sources said.
The other three lenders are JP Morgan Chase JPM.N , Citibank C.N and Bank One ONE.N , they said. Bank One, based in Chicago, will take the heaviest exposure at $600 million. Of its share, half or $300 million is a separate credit line. The remaining $1.2 billion of the financing is divided equally among the four institutions.
Banks and others are willing to lend United the money in bankruptcy because these particular credit lines get paid back first.
United, based in the Chicago suburb of Elk Grove Village, Illinois, has hired two high-profile public relations firms to help it present the bankruptcy in the best possible light and encourage travelers to continue to use the airline.
By Kathy Fieweger
CHICAGO (Reuters) - United Airlines filed for bankruptcy on Monday after a weak economy, high costs and low air fares left the world's No. 2 airline with too much debt and not enough cash.
United, a unit of UAL Corp. UAL.N , will continue to fly worldwide as it attempts to reorganize under protection from the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in the Northern District of Illinois.
United, with about 83,000 employees, had two of its Boeing BA.N jets commandeered in the devastating attacks on New York and Washington on Sept. 11, 2001. Since then it has posted nearly $4 billion in losses, with no end in sight to the red ink.
The bankruptcy is the largest ever in the global aviation industry, which remains mired in a historic money-losing downturn since Sept. 11.
Another big U.S. airline, Arlington, Virginia-based US Airways Group UAWGQ.OB , filed for bankruptcy in August, and several smaller carriers have shut down altogether.
GOVERNMENT SAID NO
For United, which has a history of labor troubles and some of the highest wage costs in the industry, the downturn has proved too difficult to navigate. The U.S. government last week rejected the airline's bid for federal loan guarantees, which had been its last hope for securing fresh capital.
Sources familiar with the situation said the government's rejection, which angered unions and some politicians, came despite a last-minute offer of an additional $500 million in annual wage concessions by a group of unions.
Leaders of United's key unions agreed to a total of $5.2 billion in wage cuts over 5-1/2 years, but rank-and-file mechanics rejected their $700 million portion the night before Thanksgiving, dealing the bailout plan a blow.
United is 55 percent employee-owned, and the pilots and machinists each have a seat on the company's board after a 1994 employee stock ownership plan was put in place. A simple majority vote from the board was required to approve a bankruptcy filing. Bankruptcy usually leaves a company's common stock worthless.
UAL shares were trading at 55 cents in pre-open dealings on Monday, down from a Friday close at 93 cents on the New York Stock Exchange.
FINANCING IN PLACE
United has arranged with a group of banks for $1.5 billion in financing to see it through bankruptcy. At the final hour, GE Capital GE.N pulled out of the group of lenders and was replaced by CIT Group CIT.N , sources said.
The other three lenders are JP Morgan Chase JPM.N , Citibank C.N and Bank One ONE.N , they said. Bank One, based in Chicago, will take the heaviest exposure at $600 million. Of its share, half or $300 million is a separate credit line. The remaining $1.2 billion of the financing is divided equally among the four institutions.
Banks and others are willing to lend United the money in bankruptcy because these particular credit lines get paid back first.
United, based in the Chicago suburb of Elk Grove Village, Illinois, has hired two high-profile public relations firms to help it present the bankruptcy in the best possible light and encourage travelers to continue to use the airline.
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This morning's Washington Post business section front page says United will file today and already has things prepackaged and will continue operating as debtor in possession.
Practical effect for the customers over the short term is very little other than the schedule changes and service changes to economize a little. Look what happened after the USAIR chapter 11.
Used to be a great airline. Still pretty good but it is a very competative industry and after traffic loads went down from early last year it is only a matter of time unless changes are made with high cost structures.
Practical effect for the customers over the short term is very little other than the schedule changes and service changes to economize a little. Look what happened after the USAIR chapter 11.
Used to be a great airline. Still pretty good but it is a very competative industry and after traffic loads went down from early last year it is only a matter of time unless changes are made with high cost structures.
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Terrible news, for everyone at United, employees and management alike. Yes Chapter 11 will mean United will fly as usual with protection from it's creditors, but there's no future in operating like that.
You then think of airports like Denver, O'Hare, Dulles, SFO, LAX, all major United hubs. I know people will say that if they did then cease to operate, other carriers would move in to take up the slack. But look at St. Louis after TWA, it's lost traffic in a huge way.
This is not good.........
Best of luck to everyone involved at United.
You then think of airports like Denver, O'Hare, Dulles, SFO, LAX, all major United hubs. I know people will say that if they did then cease to operate, other carriers would move in to take up the slack. But look at St. Louis after TWA, it's lost traffic in a huge way.
This is not good.........
Best of luck to everyone involved at United.
Thread Starter
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>>Practical effect for the customers over the short term is very little other than the schedule changes and service changes to economize a little. Look what happened after the USAIR chapter 11. <<
Here's what's happening now at US Airways, the DIP lender is threatening to pull the plug and turn out the lights. A similar game of hardball will probably occur in the coming weeks at UAL:
_______________________________________
December 7, 2002
US Air's Chief Lender Threatens the Ultimate
By MICHELINE MAYNARD
The New York Times
The chief executive of the primary lender to US Airways said yesterday that he would liquidate the airline if unions refused to provide $200 million in additional wage and benefit concessions.
In an interview, David G. Bronner, head of the Retirement Systems of Alabama, said that he did not expect to have to follow through on his ultimatum and predicted that the discussions between the airline and its employees would result in an agreement by next week.
The concessions would be the second round in US Airways' efforts to draft a reorganization plan under Chapter 11 protection from its creditors. US Airways has said it hopes to submit its proposal to a federal bankruptcy court by Dec. 20. Before that, it would like to receive final approval for $900 million in loan guarantees from the government, which gave it provisional approval last summer.
To do so, the airline has asked union members for further cuts in pay and benefits. If they do not comply, Mr. Bronner said in the interview, the airline would go out of business and be liquidated in bankruptcy court. "What's their alternative?" he asked rhetorically. "If they don't want to do this, we'll Chapter 7 it."
Referring to the debtor-in-possession financing that the Alabama pension system is providing the airline during its time under bankruptcy protection, Mr. Bronner said that without concessions, "we'll pull the D.I.P. financing and they're gone."...
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/07/bu...t&position=top
Here's what's happening now at US Airways, the DIP lender is threatening to pull the plug and turn out the lights. A similar game of hardball will probably occur in the coming weeks at UAL:
_______________________________________
December 7, 2002
US Air's Chief Lender Threatens the Ultimate
By MICHELINE MAYNARD
The New York Times
The chief executive of the primary lender to US Airways said yesterday that he would liquidate the airline if unions refused to provide $200 million in additional wage and benefit concessions.
In an interview, David G. Bronner, head of the Retirement Systems of Alabama, said that he did not expect to have to follow through on his ultimatum and predicted that the discussions between the airline and its employees would result in an agreement by next week.
The concessions would be the second round in US Airways' efforts to draft a reorganization plan under Chapter 11 protection from its creditors. US Airways has said it hopes to submit its proposal to a federal bankruptcy court by Dec. 20. Before that, it would like to receive final approval for $900 million in loan guarantees from the government, which gave it provisional approval last summer.
To do so, the airline has asked union members for further cuts in pay and benefits. If they do not comply, Mr. Bronner said in the interview, the airline would go out of business and be liquidated in bankruptcy court. "What's their alternative?" he asked rhetorically. "If they don't want to do this, we'll Chapter 7 it."
Referring to the debtor-in-possession financing that the Alabama pension system is providing the airline during its time under bankruptcy protection, Mr. Bronner said that without concessions, "we'll pull the D.I.P. financing and they're gone."...
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/07/bu...t&position=top
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UAL going down
just shows what happens when the Unions take control of a business. Well, the fat lady is singing and everyone blames the management.
Whilst the management is not blameless, its the staff that carry the can. For years they have collected wages above industry norms and have, frankly, provided appalling levels of customer service.
Please, no bleeding hearts. I was forced to fly United for years and dreaded every moment. BA may have its gripes, but I can honestly say that BA is head and shoulders above any Long Haul American carrier.
UAL, you've had your day. You took more than you gave and now its time to say farewell. Life goes on, but maybe the employees in their next job will think about the people who pay the bills.
just shows what happens when the Unions take control of a business. Well, the fat lady is singing and everyone blames the management.
Whilst the management is not blameless, its the staff that carry the can. For years they have collected wages above industry norms and have, frankly, provided appalling levels of customer service.
Please, no bleeding hearts. I was forced to fly United for years and dreaded every moment. BA may have its gripes, but I can honestly say that BA is head and shoulders above any Long Haul American carrier.
UAL, you've had your day. You took more than you gave and now its time to say farewell. Life goes on, but maybe the employees in their next job will think about the people who pay the bills.
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Please, no bleeding hearts. I was forced to fly United for years and dreaded every moment.
There is the problem. You didn't dread it because of the wages at UAL. It's about customer service. United has had the worst for years.
There is the problem. You didn't dread it because of the wages at UAL. It's about customer service. United has had the worst for years.
I racked up 600,000 miles on UAL, 550,000 on TWA, 1,800,000 on Delta, etc.etc. and I didn't notice anything about Customer Service other than people trying to please their customers.
I don't object to personal gripes about a spat or two, or even collective gripes about management and unions. but piling on is not credible in my opinion.
I don't object to personal gripes about a spat or two, or even collective gripes about management and unions. but piling on is not credible in my opinion.
I had an arsehole transplant but the arsehole rejected me, which is why I write such rubbish
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Stockholders strike back !!
All;
With UAl going into Chapter 11 today, and the stock price sitting at 0.93c down from $60+ in the late nineties, the following is an excerpt from the UAL bulletin board on Yahoo..
"Unions -- Day of Reckoning has Come
by: just_a_tek (46/M/Ft. Worth, TX) 12/09/02 05:12 pm
Msg: 27620 of 27623
Robert Crandall on CNBC about an hour ago:
The only way AMR, DAL, UAL, CAL, etc will survive is to throw out the existing labor contracts and rewrite new ones that are on par with the ones at Southwest and Jet Blue. He said simply cutting a few percent in wages here and there wont get it, and I believe he is right. They asked Crandall why he didn't take this drastic move when he was at AMR, and he said the airline could not afford a strike then because it would be run out of business.
I completely agree with Crandall. All you arrogant overpaid and underworked pilots, mechanics, ramp workers, flight attendents, etc are finally going to have to face the music. The party is over. Either accept radical paycuts (because the times they are a changin')and new work rules or your airline will be liquidated and you will be out a job. There will be no other airlines to work for because there will be an over supply of already laid off airline workers.
Yes sir boys and girls you played the game and milked it for as long as you could. And things have been good for you. I don't have a problem with that. But I can't tell you how much pleasure it gives me to know that even for you guys there eventually comes a day of reckoning. I love it! I really do. I can't tell you how happy I am that even you guys are finally going to have to make a choice:
Work for 60% of what your making now (what your really worth) or work at McDonalds. haha. I love it!!!!!!! Even you guys aren't invincible like you think you are! haha"
Not a pretty sight to say the least. All text from Yahoo inserted into double apostrophies.
Andy
With UAl going into Chapter 11 today, and the stock price sitting at 0.93c down from $60+ in the late nineties, the following is an excerpt from the UAL bulletin board on Yahoo..
"Unions -- Day of Reckoning has Come
by: just_a_tek (46/M/Ft. Worth, TX) 12/09/02 05:12 pm
Msg: 27620 of 27623
Robert Crandall on CNBC about an hour ago:
The only way AMR, DAL, UAL, CAL, etc will survive is to throw out the existing labor contracts and rewrite new ones that are on par with the ones at Southwest and Jet Blue. He said simply cutting a few percent in wages here and there wont get it, and I believe he is right. They asked Crandall why he didn't take this drastic move when he was at AMR, and he said the airline could not afford a strike then because it would be run out of business.
I completely agree with Crandall. All you arrogant overpaid and underworked pilots, mechanics, ramp workers, flight attendents, etc are finally going to have to face the music. The party is over. Either accept radical paycuts (because the times they are a changin')and new work rules or your airline will be liquidated and you will be out a job. There will be no other airlines to work for because there will be an over supply of already laid off airline workers.
Yes sir boys and girls you played the game and milked it for as long as you could. And things have been good for you. I don't have a problem with that. But I can't tell you how much pleasure it gives me to know that even for you guys there eventually comes a day of reckoning. I love it! I really do. I can't tell you how happy I am that even you guys are finally going to have to make a choice:
Work for 60% of what your making now (what your really worth) or work at McDonalds. haha. I love it!!!!!!! Even you guys aren't invincible like you think you are! haha"
Not a pretty sight to say the least. All text from Yahoo inserted into double apostrophies.
Andy
Eight Gun Fighter
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Bankruptcy makes it easier for United to force its unions to
"Now that [United is] in Chapter 11, the industry restructuring
that we've all been waiting for and that is really badly needed
will finally happen," said Darryl Jenkins, a professor of
aviation economics at George Washington University.
Bankruptcy makes it easier for United to force its unions to
take pay cuts, which opens the door for other airlines to do
the same.
Unions are likely to fight attempts to cut wages and benefits,
but ultimately they may have no choice but to give in, analysts
said.
"Unless their union members have, in terms of their jobs, a
death wish, they will listen," said Aaron Gellman, professor of
management and strategy at Northwestern University's
Transportation Center.
ABC
Slippery slope, or what?
that we've all been waiting for and that is really badly needed
will finally happen," said Darryl Jenkins, a professor of
aviation economics at George Washington University.
Bankruptcy makes it easier for United to force its unions to
take pay cuts, which opens the door for other airlines to do
the same.
Unions are likely to fight attempts to cut wages and benefits,
but ultimately they may have no choice but to give in, analysts
said.
"Unless their union members have, in terms of their jobs, a
death wish, they will listen," said Aaron Gellman, professor of
management and strategy at Northwestern University's
Transportation Center.
ABC
Slippery slope, or what?
How many of these so-called academic "industry experts" (other than Mr. Levine, who was with NWA), who are always quoted by our media, have ever worked in private industry, but specifically, for an airline?
Their cure-alls for the industry are always, for them, safe proclamations as they peer out from their "embattled" ivory towers while under siege from the Student Frisbee Competition on the campus green, or a low-flying squadron of feathery attack pigeons, bloated with blackberries.
What a bold and risky position to hold on the high ground during industrial warfare, for those with no airline experience.
I've also noticed how often 'Schadenfreude' (joy at others' harm) seems to be the prime motivator for some Ppruners' comments.
Their cure-alls for the industry are always, for them, safe proclamations as they peer out from their "embattled" ivory towers while under siege from the Student Frisbee Competition on the campus green, or a low-flying squadron of feathery attack pigeons, bloated with blackberries.
What a bold and risky position to hold on the high ground during industrial warfare, for those with no airline experience.
I've also noticed how often 'Schadenfreude' (joy at others' harm) seems to be the prime motivator for some Ppruners' comments.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 11th Dec 2002 at 03:26.