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Lufthansa board reject 9 Bn rescue plan

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Lufthansa board reject 9 Bn rescue plan

Old 31st May 2020, 15:05
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Germany is being treated fairly, like any other EU countries. Following Air Berlin demise, with Condor future in doubt, DLH has very little competition hence the need to ensure some redistribution of slots. This might not benefit DLH stockholders; but this will benefit German customers.

DLH biggest problem are internal, really. The Germanwings/Eurowings saga, to start with. Low service; high cost. DLH management dumped their inability to address the company high cost on their customers, destroying in the process their Lufthansa brand in all German places but FRA and MUC. Poor operational records of both ventures (not surprising - LBA audits are a joke). DLH acquisitions outside of Germany fared better in German speaking countries, Austria and Switzerland, than in other, Belgium or Scandinavia. I won't elaborate of the reasons, subjectivity might step in.

Your reference to the Club Med is really disturbing. Please keep in mind the biggest flow of money over Europe will remain the Marshall Plan. It resulted from a German madness, incidentally.
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Old 31st May 2020, 15:34
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Whilst it might have been tempting for management to tough this out. I have heard that one reason they decided not to was concern as to what would happen to their own jobs in an insolvency. The concessions asked for also don't look impossible. Yes it is unhelpful to Lufthansa's home base dominance strategy. But giving up slots at a time when traffic is forecast to be significantly lower is probably manageable. If some go to Ryanair then the EU can probably use that as a sop to O'Leary.
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Old 31st May 2020, 19:19
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
...and all the while same person in Brussels (Mrs.Vestager) has apparently no trouble whatsoever in the case of Italia who is direct state subsidies/bailouts since 2008 if memory serves correctly.
At least we have "Mutti" fighting for LH vs Vestager - never thought I'd be praising her, but she's doing the right thing.

https://www.politico.eu/article/merk...an-commission/
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 09:52
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by armagnac2010 View Post

Your reference to the Club Med is really disturbing. Please keep in mind the biggest flow of money over Europe will remain the Marshall Plan. It resulted from a German madness, incidentally.
Which was not a free lunch. Think geopolitical.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 10:39
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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And people accidentally forget that if it wasnt for the club med countries also condoning the equivalent of hundred of billions of euros in war reparations, Germany would not be where it is today, taking advantage of a powerful industrial base and a strong euro fuelling their massive commercial surplus at the expense of the rest of the UE
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 11:13
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Your reference to the Club Med is really disturbing.
Is it ? I feel sorry for you and your hurt feelings. Have a look at the median wealth per person of Spain, Italy, Portugal and even Greece: higher than that of the Germans. The 2019 numbers in USD are:

F - 101.942
SP - 95.360
I - 91.889
P - 44.025
GR - 40.000

D - 35.313

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Old 1st Jun 2020, 12:46
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Compared with Germany, people in other countries tend to own their living place, rather than renting it and spending their income on useless luxury car leasings. This is indeed why there are no speed limits on Autobahn; get the average German family to spend a disproportionate amount of their wages on Mercs or BMW. We all know buying a car is the best way to lose capital. So in the end, German median wealth is low, compared to the living standards of the country. A respectable choice, except it promotes CO2 emissions, and hopefully the EU will pay a closer look at it.

Back to the topic, bitte. Ensuring DLH has some minimal competition will actually benefit the flying public flying to and from Germany, mostly German presumably. Not only the ones flying to Ibiza, but also the business people, DLH fares are simply horrendous in business.

The bailout plan is money for the stakeholders, and to a lesser degree, for the employees; they save their investment and keep their jobs. Redistributing slots will benefit the general public, ie the taxpayers.

A fair deal, isn’t it?
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 12:52
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
Have a look at the median wealth per person of Spain, Italy, Portugal and even Greece: higher than that of the Germans.
You know what they say about statistics, right?

There are lots of asterisks than you can put next to these numbers as every country has different habits and ways of accounting that strongly influence numbers like this. Private vs public assets etc.

If you look at _all_ the numbers (even those that don't fit your bias) rather than picking one you can see the story is entirely different.

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Old 1st Jun 2020, 17:58
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Is your Ivory Tower situated in the Kremlin, Armagnac 2000? This reads like the left wingers ( commies ) comments in the newspaper. In what a world are you living? I do not own a car, because I cant afford it any more, I walk, or use public transport if necessary. Your comments are full of hate.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 18:53
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by armagnac2010 View Post
Back to the topic, bitte. Ensuring DLH has some minimal competition will actually benefit the flying public flying to and from Germany, mostly German presumably. Not only the ones flying to Ibiza, but also the business people, DLH fares are simply horrendous in business.

Redistributing slots will benefit the general public, ie the taxpayers.

A fair deal, isn’t it?
No it isn't - and maybe you should lay off the Armagnac as it tends to cloud your vision.

LH has always had competition, both out- and inside Germany. No problem with that.

In my 35+ years flying for LH I have never been to Ibiza and only once to Palma. We never made money flying tourists.
Business people are happy to pay a decent price to have a reliable airline fly destinations that they would otherwise not reach like many East European-Ex-Soviet places and other destinations that western airlines do not fly to.

Redistributing slots to airlines like Ryanair and Easyjet will benefit the general public you comment - good joke, next joke, when it is taxpayers like me that subsidize their operations like in Hahn ( yes, that one cow village touted as Frankfurt by Ryanair ). Bad joke.

Not fair at all. Danke.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 19:07
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How would easyJet be subsidized? They pay taxes and social security the same way LH does, they have unions, and they get no incentives from local regions.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 19:30
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Another bad joke ...."Italy just can’t break up with Alitalia.

And it's an expensive relationship. After at least six failed rescue plans over the past 12 years, the Italian government has once again stepped in to prop up its flag carrier, now bludgeoned by the coronavirus crisis. Rome has decided to renationalize it with more than €3 billion of public money.

For both ordinary Italian voters and European Commission officials policing government subsidies, questions about how long Italy can keep treating an airline as the most sacred of cows (and keep shoveling money into a black hole) are only growing louder.

“Italians see Alitalia as a spaghetti strainer — you pour in money and it comes straight out,” said one former manager.

Indeed, the company has burned through an eye-watering €10 billion in bailouts and loans since it was privatized in 2008.

“You could say the coronavirus has been both the worst thing and the best thing for Alitalia,” the manager continued. “The losses have been enormous, but it has given the government an excuse to nationalize.”

https://www.politico.eu/article/alit...alian-to-fail/
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 20:07
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Well the tide ran out and the ones left standing naked was surprise surprise the germans. Maybe their towels was left on a sunbed somewhere.
Pehaps it shouldn't have been so surprising, at least for they who knew they couldn't make money on transporting tourists. Well according to foxcharliep2 that is. But are instead depending on they who don't pay for the ticket themselves, and hopefully are not looking at the costs. That in a downturn is a castle built on sand. Now all their commentators are busy searching for airlines doing worse than themselves, and the only one they found was Alitalia. That just makes it even more sad.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 00:19
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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There are hundredthousands of airline people fearing the loss of their jobs for good. Friends, colleagues, many of them the finest one can think of, no matter, which airline they work for. In " my days " there was a brotherhood of airliners, and I have no doubt, it still exists. But all, some commentators can do, is to spread words of hate and accusations. No one is responsible for the present situation, the virus affects them all, the subsidies and aids paid to airlines will in the end achieve nothing. The surviving airlines will have to find a way to get out of that misery. Competition at all costs is a nuisance. Years ago, the German Internal Services ( IGS ) were operated by Pan American and British European Airways. When the passenger numbers dropped significantly, either airline was flying with half-empty aircraft, creating heavy losses. In spite of the fierce competion, both airlines decided for a split of routes, so they could secure reasonable loads and income. I think it was the wisest decision of this kind in airline history. Mrs. Vestager would have fainted. Of course this was only possible due to the status of the Berlin air traffic. You can " throw " new routes at other airlines for the sake of competition, but with the high unemployment rates in many countries, there wont be many passengers who can afford to buy are airline ticket. The demand will set the rules. As it always was the case.

Last edited by BEA 71; 2nd Jun 2020 at 00:21. Reason: Spelling error
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 08:38
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Divide et impera - The discussion here is a perfect example.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 11:28
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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A respectable choice, except it promotes CO2 emissions, and hopefully the EU will pay a closer look at it.

Back to the topic, bitte. Ensuring DLH has some minimal competition will actually benefit the flying public flying to and from Germany, mostly German presumably.
Do you see the contradiction in your comments....?

Last edited by His dudeness; 2nd Jun 2020 at 11:40.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 11:44
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JCviggen View Post
You know what they say about statistics, right?
I think I do.


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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 11:57
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by armagnac2010 View Post
Compared with Germany, people in other countries tend to own their living place, rather than renting it and spending their income on useless luxury car leasings. This is indeed why there are no speed limits on Autobahn; get the average German family to spend a disproportionate amount of their wages on Mercs or BMW. We all know buying a car is the best way to lose capital. So in the end, German median wealth is low, compared to the living standards of the country. A respectable choice, except it promotes CO2 emissions, and hopefully the EU will pay a closer look at it.
Im regurlarly in France, Spain, Greece and have been so for a considerable time (being an executive pilot for 30 years + now). I always wondered why there are no cars on the roads in the club med, just donkey carts. Thanks for enlightening me.

Do you even realize how dumm your arguments are ? Do you have ANY idea what a nurse, a salesperson, an average low paid person in Germany earns ? And what the costs of living is ?

IF you find a way, how - say my wife, who is an assistant to a dentist - can survive and drive Merc or an BMW on her 1200 salary (after taxes) if she would not be married, but would have to rent her own little flat (30 square meter comes at about 450-600/Month), let me know. Or get her own flat or house.
In reality she drives a used Smart For 2 we bought for 8000 years ago and will keep that car for the foreseeable future.

I have the distinct feeling that you dont have the slightest idea about realities of living in Germany. And no, Im not complaining, Im relatively well off.


Last edited by His dudeness; 10th Jun 2020 at 08:49.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 01:17
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bidule View Post
According to the OECD, it is far from being correct: https://www1.compareyourcountry.org/tax-revenues-global




AF had to leave almost all its domestic network to get the money (and this will lead to HOP! disappearing soon).

.
Well don't forget that France currently owns quite some stake in AF. Heard no complaints about that from the danish Lady in brussels.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 05:37
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It may be because LH dominance at FRA and MUC is very much above the AF dominance at CDG. In fact, in Europe (except IST), LH is the first dominant carrier at its hubs

Source: https://www.oag.com/oag-megahubs-2019

.
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