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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 13th Dec 2020, 12:40
  #1661 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
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Tempos Fugit

ATC Watcher

Yeah, only time will tell, totally agree.
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Old 13th Dec 2020, 21:32
  #1662 (permalink)  
 
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Kind of scary how many of the observations on the KAL LOSA report appear to directly apply to PAL......
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Old 14th Dec 2020, 02:33
  #1663 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
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Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever View Post
Kind of scary how many of the observations on the KAL LOSA report appear to directly apply to PAL......
That supposed KAL Safety Audit Findings document is of very questionable provenance as we have discussed here in years past.

Originally Posted by stilton View Post
I found it very unusual that the 'Delta' consultants for Koreans safety audit seemed to have such extensive knowledge of B747 operations since they had not operated any at the time for decades !


And of course, at that time had never operated the 744.
Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Yep, it's obvious that this was never written by Delta types or even Americans for that matter. We don't nickel and dime over the use of armrests and when to return the gear handle to off.

This document was for a while published on Alex Patterson's website, he mainly has views on the AFAP debacle of 1989 posted there.

Somehow the 'audit report' achieved urban legend status and was touted in some quarters as the actual summary of Delta's findings.

Delta did operate a couple of 747's in the 1970's as I recall. Were they leased from Pan Am, perhaps?

Originally Posted by maui View Post
Screwdriver.

The Delta Audit of Korean Air has never been published.

The report you are seeking is a set of observations of two unqualified auditors, appointed to report to Delta, along with a bunch of others. The real Delta report was an internal document which highlighted various deficiencies which have been addressed in the ensuing 6 or 7 years.

If you wish to give credance to the report you seek, consider the worth of such comments as, "the pilot had his armrests down during takeoff" (or words to that effect). Coincidently, I have audited the author of that little gem, and guess what, he had his armrests down during takeoff. But who gives a shit.

Caveat Emptor

Maui
Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Yep, the "report" that was circulated was some Ozmate's inputs about how they did it back in his day. You could tell that a Deltoid didn't write it from the trivial pursuits, like when to put down the armrests on your seat as mentioned above.

These days, Delta giving advice on how to run an airline is kinda like AFAP giving advice on how to run a union.
Originally Posted by maui View Post
Bub

Nearly correct.

Report was penned by two from the dark continent, to whom race could be an issue.

Oz mate managed to get hold of it and published it without authors' specific consent as I understand it. For some reason best known to himself AP seems to want to keep it public, despite its misrepresentative title.
Doesn't do his credibility or cause any good.

Maui
Originally Posted by Centaurus View Post
We are all relieved to read that report published on the internet was all rubbish and biased and best of all that Korean Air is squeaky clean in all departments. Thank goodness for that. Now about that hilltop at Guam....

Originally Posted by maui View Post
Centaurus.

As an Australian I would have assumed that you understand the english language. Pray tell from where in the previous posts do you draw the conclusions you have facetiously assumed in your previous post.

The issue canvassed was the integrity of a report that purported to be the product of a reputable carrier. It wasn't penned by them was never endorsed by them. Do you understand!

True, it was the input to Delta of two of 20 odd (informal/unqualified auditors) contributors to the final document which has remained confidential. If you have read the report you will recognise that it was strongly influenced by the previous experiences and prejudices of the authors rather than being an objective analysis of the system of operation and the auditees compliance therewith.

Maui
The 'KAL Audit Findings' document is also still posted here on PPRuNe:

https://www.pprune.org/pub/tech/korean.html
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Old 14th Dec 2020, 04:47
  #1664 (permalink)  
 
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Bottom line is simple. KAL was a Shyte show and was close to losing access to primary international markets and insurance cover unless they cleaned up their act. The Delta guys came in and pointed out what they needed to do. To KAL’s credit they made some wrenching internal changes and fixed most of the issues. FWIW a friend of mine had first hand knowledge of KAL in the bad old days and almost everything in the report I referenced mirrors what he told me.

PAL and the Pakistani regulators are at a crossroads. They can effect structural change and adopt a modern flight safety culture or they keep on with cosmetic changes that everyone can see through while continuing to crash airplanes. If that is the way they chose to go then they will be a regional only airline going forward.
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Old 14th Dec 2020, 05:24
  #1665 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
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Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever View Post
FWIW a friend of mine had first hand knowledge of KAL in the bad old days and almost everything in the report I referenced mirrors what he told me.
It may be true but that so-called report is not what Delta produced. They are not the 'results' of the Delta audit and in my view this bogus document seems to be intentionally mislabeled.

For example: '16. Use of monitored approach should be implemented.'

Why on earth would Delta recommend those wacky monitored approaches to another airline? Do you think they use them themselves?

And yes, I have a couple of friends from that era at KAL as well. One flew the 747 after he got fired at Pan Am. The other pencil-whipped some left seat time in an A306 and got hired as a KE captain. He later retired on the B-744.

Speaking of the A306, did you happen to know the ex-Wardair captain who absconded after the Cheju crash? I never met him but we had mutual friends.

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