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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 28th Feb 2024, 14:12
  #1721 (permalink)  
 
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Skybrary lists 71 accidents or incidents for which 'Authority Gradient' was listed as a contributory factor in formal reports. I leave it to finer statisticians than I to allocate these to specific cultures or geographical entities

Accidents and Incidents | SKYbrary Aviation Safety
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Old 28th Feb 2024, 19:35
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Originally Posted by Maninthebar
Skybrary lists 71 accidents or incidents for which 'Authority Gradient' was listed as a contributory factor in formal reports. I leave it to finer statisticians than I to allocate these to specific cultures or geographical entities

Accidents and Incidents | SKYbrary Aviation Safety
I clicked on one randomly and could not see any link to authority gradient !
Maybe find another metric...
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Old 29th Feb 2024, 01:13
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Originally Posted by CVividasku
I clicked on one randomly and could not see any link to authority gradient !
Maybe find another metric...
If you click on the search criteria you will see "Authority Gradient" is marked.

I clicked on a random entry:
https://skybrary.aero/accidents-and-...bai-india-2009
and while the words "authority gradient" aren't in there, the report indicates a submissive FO who didn't have much input into the approach or obvious reasons.

So yes, IMO Maninthebar has provided a good link.
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Old 29th Feb 2024, 08:01
  #1724 (permalink)  
 
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In Eastern cultures, an older man is to be considered in the same light as your very own father. You don't raise your voice at them, criticize them or complain about their behaviour for fear of being seen as rude. We in the Western world were there too once upon a time. It won't change for another 30-50 years I'm afraid.
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Old 29th Feb 2024, 21:46
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"[Captain] was of bossy nature, firm, dominant and overbearing. He had below average intelligence. He tends to have little regard for the authority. He had low mechanical comprehension with low comprehension of space relations. His level of stress tolerance was also quite inadequate."
That reminds me of a few Captains I used to fly with.

I try hard to avoid an authority gradient but it can be difficult with an F/O who’s young enough to be my child and only has a few hundred hours. I flew with one a couple of months ago who carried a notebook and kept writing down what I had said. She flew well and was very keen to learn but I doubt she would have challenged a poor decision or spoken up.
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Old 1st Mar 2024, 09:24
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Blancolirio (Juan Browne) discussion here.
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Old 1st Mar 2024, 17:20
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Juan Browne succinctly captures the absolutely disgusting operational culture and cockpit dynamics that contributed to this crash. This is one airline that I would never choose for my travel plans.
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Old 1st Mar 2024, 22:14
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Originally Posted by J.O.
Juan Browne succinctly captures the absolutely disgusting operational culture and cockpit dynamics that contributed to this crash. This is one airline that I would never choose for my travel plans.
I wonder what his real name is. There is no Juan Browne or Brown anywhere in the FAA database...
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Old 2nd Mar 2024, 02:38
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I wonder what his real name is
Probably Thomas "Juan" Browne.

https://www.theunion.com/news/grass-...309dcdb94.html

Last edited by megan; 2nd Mar 2024 at 05:23.
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Old 2nd Mar 2024, 07:30
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Sobering stuff and further comments are pointless, other than voicing increased respect for Airbus designers. Ironically, keeping the gear up on the second approach could have improved the outcome.

Question from a long retired bus driver: was the route stored or downloaded from PIA with the SABEN hold already in it (ie other crews would have encountered the scenario) or was it manually inserted by this crew? Of course, a basic altitude/dtg check somewhere would have been useful, but then so would a bacon sandwich.

Next week I hope to enjoy a westbound daylight flight with a reputable Middle East airline. I will enjoy it more if you sandpit chaps can assure me there will be no fasting at the front…
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Old 2nd Mar 2024, 09:52
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I suspect the SABEN hold was inserted automatically when retrieved from the nav database memory when the ILS procedure was loaded as it is part of the procedure. The crew would likely have been familiar with this ‘gotcha’ but having not flown regularly because of the pandemic, not concentrating on the task in hand and fasting, they missed it. Also pre-pandemic, perhaps getting the shortcut to the ILS was less common as the traffic environment would’ve been busier. OM-C would likely have warned of this trap too (or maybe not in PIA!) but the crew were overconfident and had likely flown this domestic route many times and became complacent.
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Old 2nd Mar 2024, 16:32
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Originally Posted by megan
That sure sounds like our Juan.
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Old 2nd Mar 2024, 16:58
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That sure sounds like our Juan.
It does indeed!

​​​​​​​... and yours truly flew a flawless single engine (Instrument Landing System) into LAX with crummy weather – 500 feet broken/mist.
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Old 3rd Mar 2024, 00:07
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​​​​​​​... and yours truly flew a flawless single engine (Instrument Landing System) into LAX with crummy weather – 500 feet broken/mist
A little promotion might be excused as his Mother, Juanita Kennedy Browne, also wrote a "100 Years Ago" column in the '80's for the paper, Father was an engineer working for Aerojet on the Space Shuttle. Paper seems to take a local boy made good view of Juan. Good for him, something positive.
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Old 3rd Mar 2024, 06:22
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Originally Posted by RudderTrimZero
In Eastern cultures, an older man is to be considered in the same light as your very own father. You don't raise your voice at them, criticize them or complain about their behaviour for fear of being seen as rude. We in the Western world were there too once upon a time. It won't change for another 30-50 years I'm afraid.
Doesn't need to apply for aviation, on-board and it should not.

It's a responsibility of the F/O too not to get killed. As a part of their professional qualification they shall know how to.

P.
A.
C.
E.

I learned that as en ex commie kid 25 years ago. No need to invent a new horse.
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Old 3rd Mar 2024, 09:04
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In my training that was only ever briefly mentioned in passing. Never practised or used in any scenario in the Sim.

It is not easy for a young or new F/O to challenge an older and very experienced captain - especially an autocratic captain.

It's not enough to say "this is what you do". Like everything in flying, it has to be rehearsed and practised.

We were never given the mindset of being equal flyers; and taking control was only ever practised for captain incapacitation - where there is no argument or opposition - or when F/Os were given an exercise being the PIC and the captain was their F/O.
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Old 3rd Mar 2024, 09:57
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From a recent edition of The Times newspaper (UK):



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Old 4th Mar 2024, 02:48
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"Captain, you must listen" written in our ops manual and that was three decades ago.
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Old 4th Mar 2024, 03:06
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Mr. Khaqan Murtaza
Director General of Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) of Pakistan,

You Must Listen……
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Old 4th Mar 2024, 04:37
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Not being a pilot, but I have wondered why "Direct to" was not often given during my trips up front with a Jeppesen in my lap,
In the late 70's my L1011 training included Nav and I was shown the capability of the triple system in this aircraft and capability to arrive at destination spot on time, but with multi ATC areas and rules being excluded.
Why offer "pilot discretion proceed direct MAKLI" if this would entail a follow on LH hold pattern (over a populated areas), what advantage?
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