SIA pilots threaten industrial action (merged)
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Gentlemen and the stray lady out there (To be politically correct), it is about time that management in all airlines and specially the Asian cariers, give a bit of more respect, empathy and consideration to their commanders and pilots. A first class or need be, a business class seat, is the least they can provide for their rest period. I am sick and tired of management short changing their aviators. This is a non-issue to any operations manager who has a minimum of comon sense and the operating experience to be in that position.
Pilots who attack pilots such as "Bennie and the Jets" (Can you believe the pseodonym?) have this nasty habit of ending up the "brown-nosing" track to a management position themselves. Fortunately there are more aviators out there than desk jocks. Big Brutha has got it right.
Pilots who attack pilots such as "Bennie and the Jets" (Can you believe the pseodonym?) have this nasty habit of ending up the "brown-nosing" track to a management position themselves. Fortunately there are more aviators out there than desk jocks. Big Brutha has got it right.
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G.Khan
Absolutely spot on, especially “these unique and spiteful people would try to get their own back on the tech crew.”
Please, if only for myself, keep these pithy observations coming.
Bennie and the Jets
Whilst I suppose we must, with whatever reluctance, countenance the specious and facile observations of a section of the Pprune community, referred to elsewhere on this forum as “wannabees and Nintendo 'pilots' and all the associated armchair idiots”, we cannot let such observations go without lending aspersion to the author’s IQ and explaining to him or her the core of the matter.
Please be aware that the issue is about unilateral abrogation by SIA management, following a time hallowed formula and without an ounce of pre-consultation, of unequivocal contractual obligations made previously and collectively to the airline’s flight crews and as a corollary, includes the laudable counter stance taken by ALPA-S, to fight such unjust and contemptuous treatment.
If you are in any doubt as to the veracity of this assertion, please ask your remedial tutor to read out to you the previous postings of this thread, as confirmation.
Absolutely spot on, especially “these unique and spiteful people would try to get their own back on the tech crew.”
Please, if only for myself, keep these pithy observations coming.
Bennie and the Jets
Whilst I suppose we must, with whatever reluctance, countenance the specious and facile observations of a section of the Pprune community, referred to elsewhere on this forum as “wannabees and Nintendo 'pilots' and all the associated armchair idiots”, we cannot let such observations go without lending aspersion to the author’s IQ and explaining to him or her the core of the matter.
Please be aware that the issue is about unilateral abrogation by SIA management, following a time hallowed formula and without an ounce of pre-consultation, of unequivocal contractual obligations made previously and collectively to the airline’s flight crews and as a corollary, includes the laudable counter stance taken by ALPA-S, to fight such unjust and contemptuous treatment.
If you are in any doubt as to the veracity of this assertion, please ask your remedial tutor to read out to you the previous postings of this thread, as confirmation.
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Finalverdict says:
Interesting comment, and one quite possibly worthy of a thread of its own.
I’d be very interested to read from others on this site whether I’m alone in my suspicion that that amorphous group we pilots lump under the heading ‘management’ have been on a conscious, unremitting, deliberate and very committed campaign to undermine and downgrade the once relatively respected position a captain enjoyed in the airline industry
Where this management attitude has grown from is debatable, (just as, I admit, is my original assertion). It’s always been there to some degree – just read ‘Flying the Line’, the history of ALPA – especially those of you who pillory and ‘don’t need’ unions – to see what this job was – and would have continued to be – if the likes of Eddie Rikenbaker had had their way with their ‘Genghis Khan’ management attitudes towards pilots. Sufficient to say that had Rikenbaker and his ilk had their way, very few of us now reading this thread would have elected to become airline pilots in the first place - no matter how deep their love of flying might be – because it simply would not have been an attractive job for anyone with an iota of ambition or self-respect.
But that was fifty to seventy years ago, and I’m very aware that there are many who don’t believe that ‘ancient’ history has anything to teach them. Looking at slightly more contemporary events, I believe quite a large proportion of the ‘blame’, if that’s the right word, for the current management attitude can be traced back to Frank Lorenzo in the US and Pytor Abeles and Rupert Murdoch in Australia in the 80s – but far moreso, to those pilots who allowed them to get away with their union-busting tactics by co-operating with them for what doubtlessly seemed worthwhile reasons for many at the time.
Management worldwide learned far more from the US and Australian debacles than many, if not most, pilots not directly affected seem to have learned. They saw that they could use just about anyone to fly modern aircraft – and get away with it… or most of the time. There is always that floating group of mercenaries holding a job in a not so nice part of the world who’ll come running (to say nothing of the ‘wannabes’ who’ll take any conditions to get a foot in the proverbial door). Then there are always some others who have been recently laid off by other companies - some of these will take any job under almost any conditions just to put food on the table. But most importantly, they learned that they could always rely on a sufficiently large group from within their won company’s pilot ranks to ‘break ranks’ due to company loyalty, weakness or perceived short-term personal gain. All these pilots could usually rationalise their actions (to their own satisfaction, at least), with high-sounding platitudes and moralizations. (Don’t believe me? Take a look on the current Cathay work ban threads.)
In short? The problem is a self-inflicted wound – we’re doing it to ourselves.
…it is about time that management in all airlines… give a bit of more respect, empathy and consideration to their commanders and pilots.
I’d be very interested to read from others on this site whether I’m alone in my suspicion that that amorphous group we pilots lump under the heading ‘management’ have been on a conscious, unremitting, deliberate and very committed campaign to undermine and downgrade the once relatively respected position a captain enjoyed in the airline industry
Where this management attitude has grown from is debatable, (just as, I admit, is my original assertion). It’s always been there to some degree – just read ‘Flying the Line’, the history of ALPA – especially those of you who pillory and ‘don’t need’ unions – to see what this job was – and would have continued to be – if the likes of Eddie Rikenbaker had had their way with their ‘Genghis Khan’ management attitudes towards pilots. Sufficient to say that had Rikenbaker and his ilk had their way, very few of us now reading this thread would have elected to become airline pilots in the first place - no matter how deep their love of flying might be – because it simply would not have been an attractive job for anyone with an iota of ambition or self-respect.
But that was fifty to seventy years ago, and I’m very aware that there are many who don’t believe that ‘ancient’ history has anything to teach them. Looking at slightly more contemporary events, I believe quite a large proportion of the ‘blame’, if that’s the right word, for the current management attitude can be traced back to Frank Lorenzo in the US and Pytor Abeles and Rupert Murdoch in Australia in the 80s – but far moreso, to those pilots who allowed them to get away with their union-busting tactics by co-operating with them for what doubtlessly seemed worthwhile reasons for many at the time.
Management worldwide learned far more from the US and Australian debacles than many, if not most, pilots not directly affected seem to have learned. They saw that they could use just about anyone to fly modern aircraft – and get away with it… or most of the time. There is always that floating group of mercenaries holding a job in a not so nice part of the world who’ll come running (to say nothing of the ‘wannabes’ who’ll take any conditions to get a foot in the proverbial door). Then there are always some others who have been recently laid off by other companies - some of these will take any job under almost any conditions just to put food on the table. But most importantly, they learned that they could always rely on a sufficiently large group from within their won company’s pilot ranks to ‘break ranks’ due to company loyalty, weakness or perceived short-term personal gain. All these pilots could usually rationalise their actions (to their own satisfaction, at least), with high-sounding platitudes and moralizations. (Don’t believe me? Take a look on the current Cathay work ban threads.)
In short? The problem is a self-inflicted wound – we’re doing it to ourselves.
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Best Practice
I am not an Ultra-Long Haul pilot. A question for those who are:
What is the Industry Best Practice in relation to provision of crew rest?
What do the other majors such as United, BA, Virgin, Cathay, Qantas, Air France, SAA etc do? Bunks and Business Class seats? Or some other combination?
There has to be a yardstick to measure this dispute by surely?
What is the Industry Best Practice in relation to provision of crew rest?
What do the other majors such as United, BA, Virgin, Cathay, Qantas, Air France, SAA etc do? Bunks and Business Class seats? Or some other combination?
There has to be a yardstick to measure this dispute by surely?
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In the August 18 Sunday Times; also some interesting account of the earlier dispute and its resolution.
Cheers
===============
SIA and pilots in talks over seat dispute
By Ahmad Osman and Dominic Nathan
DEPUTY NEWS EDITOR
The Sunday Times
18/8/2002
WITH three weeks to go before Singapore Airlines pilots can vote on taking industrial action, pressure is mounting to break the deadlock in negotiations with the airline's management.
Key officials from the Air Line Pilots Association Singapore (Alpa-S), senior human resource personnel from the company and officers from the Manpower Ministry held talks yesterday, with more scheduled for tomorrow.
_
The continuing talks hold out hope that a compromise can be hammered out over what appears to be a simple disagreement over whether pilots should take their in-flight rest breaks in economy or business class seats.
Some readers have asked if the issue is serious enough to warrant industrial action that could cause costly delays and flight cancellations.
Although work to rule action is not a strike, requiring the minimum notice for changes to a pilot's roster or duties when the airline is already short of pilots, could affect flight operations.
Alpa-S contends that the issue is not about seats, but the sanctity of the collective agreement.
But SIA's management does not see the new rest arrangements as a violation of the agreement.
It maintains that with fewer business class seats available now bigger Spacebeds are being installed, all seats should be filled with paying passengers.
But the pilots argue that there is a shortage of pilots, citing the more than 10,000 days of leave owed to the SIA's 1,600 pilots. This means that flight safety could be compromised if they are not well rested.
Also, being ''exposed' in economy class might pose a security risk, as they would be further away from the cockpit in an emergency.
After several rounds of talks ended in deadlock, the resolution to hold a secret ballot on taking industrial action was carried on Friday night with an 86 per cent majority.
Expatriate pilots, of whom there are about 500, could not vote, but the resolution still received about 950 ballots at the six-hour long Alpa-S extraordinary general meeting at the Pinetree Town & Country Club.
Two other resolutions condemning the management of SIA over the termination of the services of the two SQ 006 pilots and the new seating arrangement, each won about 97 per cent of the votes.
Alpa-S officials, with the advice of lawyers, made sure they complied with every legal requirement, before going down the same road as their predecessors 22 years ago.
In 1980, it was the failure to hold a secret ballot before starting industrial action that resulted in the pilots union being de-registered.
Fourteen flights were disrupted when illegal industrial action was taken, after talks over salaries and benefits broke down.
Then-Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew stepped in to settle the dispute.
Three pilots were sacked. And 15 union officials, hauled to court, were given an absolute discharge after the judge ruled that they had been adequately punished by their appearances in court, the press publicity and the 'public chastisement'.
Twenty-two years on, pilots did not want to draw any parallels with the 1980 episode.
At the end of Friday's balloting, Alpa-S honorary secretary Captain Sutharsanan, said: 'If we can come to an amicable solution, then it stops there.'
Cheers
===============
SIA and pilots in talks over seat dispute
By Ahmad Osman and Dominic Nathan
DEPUTY NEWS EDITOR
The Sunday Times
18/8/2002
WITH three weeks to go before Singapore Airlines pilots can vote on taking industrial action, pressure is mounting to break the deadlock in negotiations with the airline's management.
Key officials from the Air Line Pilots Association Singapore (Alpa-S), senior human resource personnel from the company and officers from the Manpower Ministry held talks yesterday, with more scheduled for tomorrow.
_
The continuing talks hold out hope that a compromise can be hammered out over what appears to be a simple disagreement over whether pilots should take their in-flight rest breaks in economy or business class seats.
Some readers have asked if the issue is serious enough to warrant industrial action that could cause costly delays and flight cancellations.
Although work to rule action is not a strike, requiring the minimum notice for changes to a pilot's roster or duties when the airline is already short of pilots, could affect flight operations.
Alpa-S contends that the issue is not about seats, but the sanctity of the collective agreement.
But SIA's management does not see the new rest arrangements as a violation of the agreement.
It maintains that with fewer business class seats available now bigger Spacebeds are being installed, all seats should be filled with paying passengers.
But the pilots argue that there is a shortage of pilots, citing the more than 10,000 days of leave owed to the SIA's 1,600 pilots. This means that flight safety could be compromised if they are not well rested.
Also, being ''exposed' in economy class might pose a security risk, as they would be further away from the cockpit in an emergency.
After several rounds of talks ended in deadlock, the resolution to hold a secret ballot on taking industrial action was carried on Friday night with an 86 per cent majority.
Expatriate pilots, of whom there are about 500, could not vote, but the resolution still received about 950 ballots at the six-hour long Alpa-S extraordinary general meeting at the Pinetree Town & Country Club.
Two other resolutions condemning the management of SIA over the termination of the services of the two SQ 006 pilots and the new seating arrangement, each won about 97 per cent of the votes.
Alpa-S officials, with the advice of lawyers, made sure they complied with every legal requirement, before going down the same road as their predecessors 22 years ago.
In 1980, it was the failure to hold a secret ballot before starting industrial action that resulted in the pilots union being de-registered.
Fourteen flights were disrupted when illegal industrial action was taken, after talks over salaries and benefits broke down.
Then-Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew stepped in to settle the dispute.
Three pilots were sacked. And 15 union officials, hauled to court, were given an absolute discharge after the judge ruled that they had been adequately punished by their appearances in court, the press publicity and the 'public chastisement'.
Twenty-two years on, pilots did not want to draw any parallels with the 1980 episode.
At the end of Friday's balloting, Alpa-S honorary secretary Captain Sutharsanan, said: 'If we can come to an amicable solution, then it stops there.'
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What's leave for?
But the pilots argue that there is a shortage of pilots, citing the more than 10,000 days of leave owed to the SIA's 1,600 pilots. This means that flight safety could be compromised if they are not well rested.
You can't have it both ways lads, annual leave is far more beneficial "rest" than riding in business class for a couple of hours a month! IMHO,denying pilot's their leave entitlements is also a bigger flight safety issue.
Keep the faith:]
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What is happening here is SIA are trying to claw back some of the $2 Billion SGD that the CEO has lost the Airline in their disastrous investments in Virgin Atlantic and Air New Zealand, Not only did we take an unnecessary paycut for 6 months, we also lost our service increment for 2002 just so the CEO could not lose face and show a loss for the financial year.
Now his two ex Armchair bullyboy Generals are trying to show their worth to the Board and screw the Pilots and save more money,whilst the CEO has the barefaced cheek to continue in his position but that is how things go in Singapore.
Just look at the financial losses incurred by Govt investment arm in China, the huge losses at DBS Bank who paid over the odds for a Bank in Hong Kong, Singtel paying over the odds for Optus in Oz and so it goes on. The CEO of SIA wins hands down on what he has lost the company, I award him the title of investment Clown of the year!!!
Now his two ex Armchair bullyboy Generals are trying to show their worth to the Board and screw the Pilots and save more money,whilst the CEO has the barefaced cheek to continue in his position but that is how things go in Singapore.
Just look at the financial losses incurred by Govt investment arm in China, the huge losses at DBS Bank who paid over the odds for a Bank in Hong Kong, Singtel paying over the odds for Optus in Oz and so it goes on. The CEO of SIA wins hands down on what he has lost the company, I award him the title of investment Clown of the year!!!
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1) SIA is shafting their pilots again. Nothing new.
2) Will it happen again and worst? Yes.
3) Pilots take industrial action. They will lose under the Singapore judicial system.
4) Pilots go on strike. Too scared of the iron fisted Lee Kuan Yew system, it will never happen (you will go to jail).
5) Generals and fancy military titles running the show. KGB mixed with Geshtapo, scary.
Boys, there is life (better) outside Singapore. If you have any manhood, seek employment elsewhere. Otherwise you should know better. Might have to exchange the chili bottle in your flight bag for a tube of KY.
2) Will it happen again and worst? Yes.
3) Pilots take industrial action. They will lose under the Singapore judicial system.
4) Pilots go on strike. Too scared of the iron fisted Lee Kuan Yew system, it will never happen (you will go to jail).
5) Generals and fancy military titles running the show. KGB mixed with Geshtapo, scary.
Boys, there is life (better) outside Singapore. If you have any manhood, seek employment elsewhere. Otherwise you should know better. Might have to exchange the chili bottle in your flight bag for a tube of KY.
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SIA and pilots' union reach compromise_
Hi folks,
received this in the mail. Good for them. That's progress,although
I wonder whether all the heartaches could have been avoided !
Cheers
================================
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori.../16956/1/.html
23 August 2002 2142 hrs (SST) 1342 hrs (GMT)
SIA and pilots' union reach compromise_
By S. Ramesh/Wong Siew Ying
Channel News Asia
SIA and the airline pilots' union have reached a compromise to prevent any industrial action by the pilots.
The sixth round of talks ended successfully on Friday evening.
_
According to the union, the pilots have agreed to a concession in their collective agreement with SIA.
Instead of reserving two business class seats for them to take their breaks during long-haul flights, SIA will reserve only one of the new business class seats - known as space beds - and two economy class seats.
This frees up one seat for the airline to sell to paying passengers.
But there is an option for the pilot to upgrade, to either business or first class, if there are any vacant seats left.
If there are no seats available, and the pilot has to take his break in economy class, SIA will pay him a compensation of $200.
_
received this in the mail. Good for them. That's progress,although
I wonder whether all the heartaches could have been avoided !
Cheers
================================
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori.../16956/1/.html
23 August 2002 2142 hrs (SST) 1342 hrs (GMT)
SIA and pilots' union reach compromise_
By S. Ramesh/Wong Siew Ying
Channel News Asia
SIA and the airline pilots' union have reached a compromise to prevent any industrial action by the pilots.
The sixth round of talks ended successfully on Friday evening.
_
According to the union, the pilots have agreed to a concession in their collective agreement with SIA.
Instead of reserving two business class seats for them to take their breaks during long-haul flights, SIA will reserve only one of the new business class seats - known as space beds - and two economy class seats.
This frees up one seat for the airline to sell to paying passengers.
But there is an option for the pilot to upgrade, to either business or first class, if there are any vacant seats left.
If there are no seats available, and the pilot has to take his break in economy class, SIA will pay him a compensation of $200.
_
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>>If there are no seats available, and the pilot has to take his break in economy class, SIA will pay him a compensation of $200.<<
That sort of shoots down the safety argument for upgraded crew rest seats but I'm glad they were able to work out a compromise.
That sort of shoots down the safety argument for upgraded crew rest seats but I'm glad they were able to work out a compromise.
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Hi,
Some more details on the compromise,from this evening's Straits Times.
If indeed the compromise was along those terms that the management had offered earlier, one wonders what point has been made.
Cheers
================================
With Manpower Ministry's help, both sides agree to compromise over rest seats for pilots, with compensation too
By Dominic Nathan and Ahmad Osman
The Straits Times
SINGAPORE Airlines (SIA) and its pilots resolved their dispute over in-flight breaks yesterday, ending the threat of industrial action against the airline.
_
The two sides hammered out a compromise at about 9 pm, after a tense 10-hour session yesterday, the sixth round of talks brokered by the Manpower Ministry (MOM) in the last two weeks.
The dispute erupted after the pilots were asked to take their meal and rest breaks in economy- instead of business-class seats, as they have for 13 years, because fewer business-class seats are now available following the introduction of the bigger SpaceBeds.
The Air Line Pilots Association Singapore, or Alpa-S, threatened work-to-rule action that could cause costly delays and flight cancellations, because it felt the airline's demands breached the collective agreement signed last year.
With under two weeks to go before the pilots were to hold a secret ballot on industrial action, MOM's mediation efforts yesterday helped break the months-long deadlock between both sides.
The compromise agreement will see one business-class seat set aside for pilots and if they have to sit in economy, they will receive $200 in compensation.
Pilots will also be given priority to upgrade to business class, ahead of passengers and staff. And if business class is full, they may occupy an empty first-class seat.
These terms differ depending on the length of the flights and the number of cockpit crew on board.
Representing the airline in yesterday's final round of talks were human resource senior vice-president Loh Meng See, senior vice-president for flight operations, Major-General (NS) Raymund Ng and industrial relations vice-president Chew Kai Seng.In the Alpa-S team were association president Dilip Padbidri, industrial relations vice-president Frank John and association treasurer P. James.
Helping to make peace between both sides were three officials from MOM, led by veteran mediator, labour relations director Ong Yen Her.
The talks started at 11 am and ended only at about 9 pm.
Captain John told The Straits Times last night: 'It was a bit tense, as everyone was under pressure to find a compromise.'
He said the sticking point had been the offer of compensation. Instead of cash, Alpa-S had wanted higher upgrade priority for first officers when they flew while on leave.
'We were strongly advised by the ministry to accept the cash component, so we made the concession in the light of the current economic climate and the tough times facing the airline,' Captain John added.
The compromise agreement appears similar to an offer SIA's management made during earlier rounds of stalled negotiations, which Alpa-S had rejected.
Alpa-S will now call an extraordinary general meeting, to be held in about two weeks, when its members, who account for 90 per cent of SIA's 1,600 pilots, will vote to accept the compromise.
They will also vote to dissolve an earlier resolution calling for a secret vote on work-to-rule action.
This will formally end the threat of industrial action against the airline, which last saw such an event 22 years ago.
When contacted, an SIA spokesman said: 'We are pleased that an agreement has been reached.'
However, Captain John was less upbeat. 'We cannot celebrate when there are two pilots out of a job. We will still engage the company to reinstate them,' he said, referring to the pilots of the ill-fated SQ006 whose services SIA had terminated.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New terms
* One business-class seat to be set aside for pilots; $200 compensation for pilots who have to sit in economy.
* Pilots to be given priority to upgrade to business class, ahead of passengers and staff.
* If business class is full, pilots may occupy an empty first-class seat.
The terms differ depending on whether the flight lasts up to 11 hours or so, with two captains and one first officer on board, or if it stretches to 14 hours, with two captains and two first officers.
Some more details on the compromise,from this evening's Straits Times.
If indeed the compromise was along those terms that the management had offered earlier, one wonders what point has been made.
Cheers
================================
With Manpower Ministry's help, both sides agree to compromise over rest seats for pilots, with compensation too
By Dominic Nathan and Ahmad Osman
The Straits Times
SINGAPORE Airlines (SIA) and its pilots resolved their dispute over in-flight breaks yesterday, ending the threat of industrial action against the airline.
_
The two sides hammered out a compromise at about 9 pm, after a tense 10-hour session yesterday, the sixth round of talks brokered by the Manpower Ministry (MOM) in the last two weeks.
The dispute erupted after the pilots were asked to take their meal and rest breaks in economy- instead of business-class seats, as they have for 13 years, because fewer business-class seats are now available following the introduction of the bigger SpaceBeds.
The Air Line Pilots Association Singapore, or Alpa-S, threatened work-to-rule action that could cause costly delays and flight cancellations, because it felt the airline's demands breached the collective agreement signed last year.
With under two weeks to go before the pilots were to hold a secret ballot on industrial action, MOM's mediation efforts yesterday helped break the months-long deadlock between both sides.
The compromise agreement will see one business-class seat set aside for pilots and if they have to sit in economy, they will receive $200 in compensation.
Pilots will also be given priority to upgrade to business class, ahead of passengers and staff. And if business class is full, they may occupy an empty first-class seat.
These terms differ depending on the length of the flights and the number of cockpit crew on board.
Representing the airline in yesterday's final round of talks were human resource senior vice-president Loh Meng See, senior vice-president for flight operations, Major-General (NS) Raymund Ng and industrial relations vice-president Chew Kai Seng.In the Alpa-S team were association president Dilip Padbidri, industrial relations vice-president Frank John and association treasurer P. James.
Helping to make peace between both sides were three officials from MOM, led by veteran mediator, labour relations director Ong Yen Her.
The talks started at 11 am and ended only at about 9 pm.
Captain John told The Straits Times last night: 'It was a bit tense, as everyone was under pressure to find a compromise.'
He said the sticking point had been the offer of compensation. Instead of cash, Alpa-S had wanted higher upgrade priority for first officers when they flew while on leave.
'We were strongly advised by the ministry to accept the cash component, so we made the concession in the light of the current economic climate and the tough times facing the airline,' Captain John added.
The compromise agreement appears similar to an offer SIA's management made during earlier rounds of stalled negotiations, which Alpa-S had rejected.
Alpa-S will now call an extraordinary general meeting, to be held in about two weeks, when its members, who account for 90 per cent of SIA's 1,600 pilots, will vote to accept the compromise.
They will also vote to dissolve an earlier resolution calling for a secret vote on work-to-rule action.
This will formally end the threat of industrial action against the airline, which last saw such an event 22 years ago.
When contacted, an SIA spokesman said: 'We are pleased that an agreement has been reached.'
However, Captain John was less upbeat. 'We cannot celebrate when there are two pilots out of a job. We will still engage the company to reinstate them,' he said, referring to the pilots of the ill-fated SQ006 whose services SIA had terminated.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New terms
* One business-class seat to be set aside for pilots; $200 compensation for pilots who have to sit in economy.
* Pilots to be given priority to upgrade to business class, ahead of passengers and staff.
* If business class is full, pilots may occupy an empty first-class seat.
The terms differ depending on whether the flight lasts up to 11 hours or so, with two captains and one first officer on board, or if it stretches to 14 hours, with two captains and two first officers.
Last edited by aviator_38; 23rd Aug 2002 at 23:42.
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Compromise my Foot!!!!
It shows again that there is no real will among the pilot ranks to battle the "Generals"
In true Singapore style management says: "JUMP" and the pilots ask: "HOW HIGH SIR?"
If AlpaS had fought it on safety grounds, they lose the safety argument when they accept a monetary compensation, but let's face it, SIA pilots have always buckeled when a few crumps were offered. If AlpaS and its members want to be respected in the aviation community they should throw out the offer, sit in economy, and work to the rule.
In true Singapore style management says: "JUMP" and the pilots ask: "HOW HIGH SIR?"
If AlpaS had fought it on safety grounds, they lose the safety argument when they accept a monetary compensation, but let's face it, SIA pilots have always buckeled when a few crumps were offered. If AlpaS and its members want to be respected in the aviation community they should throw out the offer, sit in economy, and work to the rule.
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Hi folks,
Just seem to be getting more updates on this through the mail,so am posting them here for completeness.
I've seen on another forum that the dispute may not be over yet,as all that ALPA-S has agreed to is to take the "proposal" back to the general membership for a vote.
The latest email received on this matter seems to partially answer the question that I posed earlier. Please see below:
Cheers
============================================
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori.../16991/1/.html
24 August 2002 1310 hrs (SST) 0510 hrs (GMT)
SIA and pilots dispute could have been avoided
By Asha Popatlal
The recent dispute between Singapore Airlines and its pilots is a lesson on how better relations between management and labour could have helped avoid a face off at the negotiating table.
This was the view of Minister of State for Manpower Ng Eng Hen.
On Friday, both SIA and ALPA-S, the association representing the pilots, came to a compromise over the conditions of in-flight rest breaks for pilots.
The deal followed the 6th round of talks brokered by the Manpower Ministry.
If the compromise had not been reached, the SIA pilots would have had to hold a secret ballot on taking up industrial action.
Such a work-to-rule move would have meant costly flight delays and cancellations for SIA passengers.
Dr Ng left no doubt that this would have had a negative impact on Singapore as SIA is a brand name for the country.
While welcoming the compromise reached, he was of the view there were lessons to be learnt from this episode.
"We should get management and union to sit up and realise how, in moving forward when there are changes, we can do this in a more amicable fashion where we don't have to sit across a table and negotiate," he said.
With better communications, Dr Ng said SIA's management could have elicited what he called "buy-in" at an earlier stage for the changes proposed, so the pilots may not have objected to them.
..................
and:
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori.../17006/1/.html
24 August 2002 1902 hrs (SST) 1102 hrs (GMT)
No victory or defeat for both pilots and SIA: ALPA-S
By S. Ramesh
The Airline Pilots Association of Singapore has said there is no element of victory or defeat in the compromise reached with Singapore Airlines on Friday.
Captain Francis John, Vice-President (Industrial Affairs) of ALPA-S, said both sides made concessions, with the pilots taking a reasonable stand, as there was pressure from the Manpower Ministry for them to do so.
After six rounds of talks mediated by the Manpower Ministry, both sides came to an agreement late on Friday night.
Capt John added: "Looking at the greater good, looking at the business environment, looking at the benefits for the airline and Singapore in toto, we thought it was best and prudent that we meet each other half way.
"The company appears to have gotten away with a victory but I don't think that's the position we should take.
"The company must not forget to treat the pilots with dignity and respect. It is not in our interest to lower the esteem of the company or muddy the good name."
So instead of reserving two business class seats for the pilots to take their breaks on long-haul flights, SIA will reserve only one seat known as 'space bed' and two economy class seats.
This will free up one seat for SIA to sell to paying passengers.
ALPA-S has argued that safety would be compromised if pilots are to take their breaks in the economy class.
So what does Friday's agreement mean?
Capt John said: "There is a certain amount of reduction, but is it
compromised? The answer is no. There is still several levels of safety built in already but this is the minimum we think is acceptable and we won't be willing to compromise from here on."
Now it is up to the pilots to accept the compromise at an extra-ordinary general meeting to be called.
======================
Just seem to be getting more updates on this through the mail,so am posting them here for completeness.
I've seen on another forum that the dispute may not be over yet,as all that ALPA-S has agreed to is to take the "proposal" back to the general membership for a vote.
The latest email received on this matter seems to partially answer the question that I posed earlier. Please see below:
Cheers
============================================
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori.../16991/1/.html
24 August 2002 1310 hrs (SST) 0510 hrs (GMT)
SIA and pilots dispute could have been avoided
By Asha Popatlal
The recent dispute between Singapore Airlines and its pilots is a lesson on how better relations between management and labour could have helped avoid a face off at the negotiating table.
This was the view of Minister of State for Manpower Ng Eng Hen.
On Friday, both SIA and ALPA-S, the association representing the pilots, came to a compromise over the conditions of in-flight rest breaks for pilots.
The deal followed the 6th round of talks brokered by the Manpower Ministry.
If the compromise had not been reached, the SIA pilots would have had to hold a secret ballot on taking up industrial action.
Such a work-to-rule move would have meant costly flight delays and cancellations for SIA passengers.
Dr Ng left no doubt that this would have had a negative impact on Singapore as SIA is a brand name for the country.
While welcoming the compromise reached, he was of the view there were lessons to be learnt from this episode.
"We should get management and union to sit up and realise how, in moving forward when there are changes, we can do this in a more amicable fashion where we don't have to sit across a table and negotiate," he said.
With better communications, Dr Ng said SIA's management could have elicited what he called "buy-in" at an earlier stage for the changes proposed, so the pilots may not have objected to them.
..................
and:
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori.../17006/1/.html
24 August 2002 1902 hrs (SST) 1102 hrs (GMT)
No victory or defeat for both pilots and SIA: ALPA-S
By S. Ramesh
The Airline Pilots Association of Singapore has said there is no element of victory or defeat in the compromise reached with Singapore Airlines on Friday.
Captain Francis John, Vice-President (Industrial Affairs) of ALPA-S, said both sides made concessions, with the pilots taking a reasonable stand, as there was pressure from the Manpower Ministry for them to do so.
After six rounds of talks mediated by the Manpower Ministry, both sides came to an agreement late on Friday night.
Capt John added: "Looking at the greater good, looking at the business environment, looking at the benefits for the airline and Singapore in toto, we thought it was best and prudent that we meet each other half way.
"The company appears to have gotten away with a victory but I don't think that's the position we should take.
"The company must not forget to treat the pilots with dignity and respect. It is not in our interest to lower the esteem of the company or muddy the good name."
So instead of reserving two business class seats for the pilots to take their breaks on long-haul flights, SIA will reserve only one seat known as 'space bed' and two economy class seats.
This will free up one seat for SIA to sell to paying passengers.
ALPA-S has argued that safety would be compromised if pilots are to take their breaks in the economy class.
So what does Friday's agreement mean?
Capt John said: "There is a certain amount of reduction, but is it
compromised? The answer is no. There is still several levels of safety built in already but this is the minimum we think is acceptable and we won't be willing to compromise from here on."
Now it is up to the pilots to accept the compromise at an extra-ordinary general meeting to be called.
======================
Last edited by aviator_38; 24th Aug 2002 at 11:26.
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Aviator 38 What a load of rubbish you talk. SIA wanted both pilots out of business class unless seats were available,so this so called 'compromise' is nothing short of buckling under knowing that SIA have clearly breached the CA but knowing that going down the road through the 'Courts' in Singapore will result in one thing only namely 'LOSING' as civil servants do as they are told by Gov't who are major shareholders and they would not want their two ex armchair bullyboy Generals to lose face. It is an absolute disgrace but that is Singapore I am afraid.
John Barnes I cannot agree with you that we should work to rule and sit in Economy as very few would really put their heads on the block and all SIA have to do is a 'CATHAY' and terminate say 10 Captains with just 3 months notice,thats what comes of working for a 3rd World Airline with draconian 3rd world labour laws. Whats another few thousand days of outstanding leave to add to the 10000 already owed Pilots???
Alpha-S are in a no win situation and at least we Captains still have aBusines Class seat and most F/Os will take the money and sleep for 7 hours whatever the time of day their rest is in the Bunk. I hope this does not sound like an 'I am alright Jack attitude' because it is not just a realisation of the Facts of Life in SIA aand the so called Legal process here.
John Barnes I cannot agree with you that we should work to rule and sit in Economy as very few would really put their heads on the block and all SIA have to do is a 'CATHAY' and terminate say 10 Captains with just 3 months notice,thats what comes of working for a 3rd World Airline with draconian 3rd world labour laws. Whats another few thousand days of outstanding leave to add to the 10000 already owed Pilots???
Alpha-S are in a no win situation and at least we Captains still have aBusines Class seat and most F/Os will take the money and sleep for 7 hours whatever the time of day their rest is in the Bunk. I hope this does not sound like an 'I am alright Jack attitude' because it is not just a realisation of the Facts of Life in SIA aand the so called Legal process here.
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Loosers
You hit it right on the head Gypsy, as long as you are afraid of what your actions can "undo" you will always be a looser and you will always have to pick-up the crumbs, At least the Cathay pilots took their management on in a real action. The actions of the SIA pilots are very loud in the crewrooms around the world and even louder in the pinetree club, but when it comes to real action there is nobody to be seen. And this of course is very well known by the guys accros the table. So as I said before, take what's being offered, sit in economy, fly 18 hours, and be happy you have a job. Also be ready for much more degrading down the line, because he who turns the other cheeck will be hammered on it!!! (Old bibical quote from the WWF handbook)
