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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

Old 29th Apr 2020, 23:46
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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I cannot see Vueling escaping the same sword. Spain is financially on its knees and tourism won't come back soon. Iberia have already been pared to the bone in the recent past but even they won't survive the same sword in their current status.

I believe it only a matter of time for similar announcements from the Iberian Peninsula.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 23:58
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by judge11 View Post
I used to know a AB - Hawk QFI - not the same one?
That’s him.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 00:01
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Apology to MP

Belated apology to Maximum Pete. You were indeed too subtle for me and my dim brain.

From chatting to a pal today, it seems that certain pension-rich 60+-year olds are happily operating long haul flights for BA with no view to retiring now and helping out others. Very sad. Selfish people. There were some at bmi too, evidently not yourself.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 02:06
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Have to say I agree

Originally Posted by judge11 View Post
Cast your minds back to post 9/11 and then 2008 - BA claim the end of the aviation world is nigh, take pay cuts and decimate T&Cs to 'save the company' - you know what happened thereafter. The 'best' became just another airline on 900hrs per annum, the most coveted roster system trashed, pension scheme destroyed - all in the name of 'saving the company'. The problem for management is, they have pared you to the bone (with your full and naive support) that there's little left to cut.
Judge is right. As a current Nigel and former BACC rep, we have made our beds. Squandering the bull run and historic profitability, we followed the Pied Piper with his pseudo economics and general BS and ratcheted down our own t&c’s. Where’s the special relationship now, where’s the reset? For that matter where’s the promise of no redundancies for a 50% pay cut until July? We have cut away all the fat, so any further cuts will be muscle. Muscle that has built this once great airline.

But what worries me most is the people that are representing us. I have seen nothing but naivety and a lack of understanding of what has gone on previously. BALPA HQ, under this GS is a joke too. The lack of talent at party HQ is apparent even from a distance, and BA will have seen that for themselves.

Especially last September when we showed, without doubt, that we are a toothless (as well as incompetent) tiger. This is IAGs prayers all being answered in one, the virus may be novel but their SOP isn’t!

I fear this will be BALPAs biggest cock up of all, it will make previous blunders look almost palatable. We are royalty screwed, people.

IAG will pair back terms so as to compete with airlines in the upturn. The same airlines that have taken billions in subsidies and loans. No wonder they won’t even be offering Mixed Fleet terms and conditions, we will be a whisker away from slave wages. The gig economy in an airline, I dare say we will be the equivalent of Deliveroo drivers when this is over.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 03:44
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone who thinks their iteration of a BALPA CC was better than the current generation is stuck in a place between grandiosity and nostalgia. Please remind yourselves of the general trend in society, economics and taxation. All things go from good, to bad to downright ugly. And in aviation this trend is in the making for 30 years now. Fighting the established powers as pilots becomes harder over time and more leeway is lost due to the simple fact that we have to constantly realign with the rest of society. It's expected.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 04:05
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RoyHudd View Post
Belated apology to Maximum Pete. You were indeed too subtle for me and my dim brain.

From chatting to a pal today, it seems that certain pension-rich 60+-year olds are happily operating long haul flights for BA with no view to retiring now and helping out others. Very sad. Selfish people. There were some at bmi too, evidently not yourself.
I'm sorry Huddy boy but I really have to reply to that; I'm an older pilot and not being selfish at all, certainly no more selfish than you sound.
I have a family to support, kids in uni, elderly parents and only a few years left to work before that is it for 20+ years of retirement. Many of you meanwhile have years of employment ahead of you and if the airlines don't bounce back you can do something else.
I still enjoy my job. I'm living this life for me and mine, not for you and yours. I owe you nothing. Good luck to all; I ain't going nowheres voluntarily. Nothing sad in it at all.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 04:09
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Superpilot View Post
Anyone who thinks their iteration of a BALPA CC was better than the current generation is stuck in a place between grandiosity and nostalgia. Please remind yourselves of the general trend in society, economics and taxation. All things go from good, to bad to downright ugly. And in aviation this trend is in the making for 30 years now. Fighting the established powers as pilots becomes harder over time and more leeway is lost due to the simple fact that we have to constantly realign with the rest of society. It's expected.
I’m not being grandiose or nostalgic, the truth is the previous BACC (which I was involved with) also made big mistakes by not capitalising on the good times. That’s not just a consequence of the general economic picture, not when other companies and certainly airline executives are getting very handsomely rewarded. BA for example, data breaches, IT failures, brand sinking to depths never seen before and almost daily bad press and still the company makes £2bn in profit and the CEO gets 400%! Now as we exhale, the boa constrictor just squeezes more until there’s no life left!
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 07:03
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Many of you meanwhile have years of employment ahead of you and if the airlines don't bounce back you can do something else.
Christ almighty. Do you know how that sounds? The “many of you” can just come back with “you’ve got a massive pension and no mortgage so you can just retire and be fine”. How does that sound to you?

You’ve every right to keep working for as long as you feel you need to, but please don’t come out with such claptrap. And don’t pull someone up on their lack of empathy/understanding for your situation and then display a complete lack of understanding/empathy for everyone beneath you on the list with the hideous phrase you’ve used above.

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Old 30th Apr 2020, 07:17
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RoyHudd View Post
From chatting to a pal today, it seems that certain pension-rich 60+-year olds are happily operating long haul flights for BA with no view to retiring now and helping out others. Very sad. Selfish people. There were some at bmi too, evidently not yourself.
Steady on, 60+ year old here......A couple of points if I may:

1. BA haven't started swinging the axe yet . I fail to see how a 60+ year old failing to retire "now" and instead operating a flight today/this week, or even in the next few weeks is being "selfish"? It may be different in a month or two so perhaps we will end revisiting this if BA start asking for VR.

2. There's also the old Chairman Mao saying about walking a mile in a man (or woman's) shoes, as witnessed by Fly747's post.


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Old 30th Apr 2020, 07:31
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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I had always planned on jacking it in at 60. Life changed drastically a few years ago and it'll have to be 65 now. If I could go at 60 I would. But it won't be happening.

There is also the inconvenient gap of two years between compulsory retirement at 65 and getting my state pension at 67.

Back to the topic. Good luck to all at BA and their appointed reps tasked with sorting this out as fairly as possible.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 07:34
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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The previous DFOs resignation for refusing to implement significantly smaller changes than this is looking rather better in the light of hindsight.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 08:24
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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In a different airline across the channel pilots that want to continue after 60 have to go part-time due to agreement with the union. This could be a cost efficient solution as the most expensive pilots will work less and most of the juniors get to keep their jobs. Imo this should be accomplished voluntarily. Good luck to all involved!
​​
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 08:31
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Incredible. The greatest health emergency in living memory and IAG go after sickness policy! Morally moribund.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 08:32
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tommy Gavin View Post
In a different airline across the channel pilots that want to continue after 60 have to go part-time due to agreement with the union. This could be a cost efficient solution as the most expensive pilots will work less and most of the juniors get to keep their jobs. Imo this should be accomplished voluntarily. Good luck to all involved!
​​
Could you explain how this is cost efficient? Surely its double everything for the part time pilots? Lpc / opc training is doubled etc etc
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 08:37
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Could you explain how this is cost efficient? Surely its double everything for the part time pilots? Lpc / opc training is doubled etc etc
I would imagine that cost would be offset by saving 75%/50% etc of somebody earning upwards of £160k, thus allowing a lowly FO/cadet to be retained.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 08:42
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Number Cruncher View Post
I would imagine that cost would be offset by saving 75%/50% etc of somebody earning upwards of £160k, thus allowing a lowly FO/cadet to be retained.
Ah, gotcha, in my mind I had 2 senior captains working part time, back to back. Makes sense now.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 08:51
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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BALPA will be spread thin on the ground, but initial "suggestions" are that BA will opt to pay the minimum statutory requirements according to the T+Cs i.e UK Mins plus statutory notice pay. Approx 25% of the pilots may be culled due to over volume and the restructuring and no option for internal job transfers. Interesting some pilots may be made redundant due to proposed "efficiency" improvements.. Now,,does that mean they are "inefficient now" or that they were never needed or that their colleagues will work so hard they will not be needed, or that the route changes and rotations will basically mean they are surplus? It appears to be a "consulted" assault on Terms and Conditions with performance goals implied. Of course one feels very sorry for the colleagues involved in this process, friends and families will be effected and BA is only trying to "survive" for the future. perhaps more Cargo ops on the cards as per Virgin. One wonders if part of the BA reaction is due to the IATA forecasts and generally the sector talking down the recovery. As it is predicted NAS will cease LH ops from UK there may be some slack there, but again the question "who wants to travel in these times" . Companies like BA burn funds at eye watering rates and even a public offering would only stick a plaster on the wound. Lets hope the selection process is fair, although any restructuring models based around capacity will ultimately effect fleet types and not service with the company.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 09:20
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Firstly, genuinely sorry to hear about what those of you at BA are going through. I'm not a pilot but I'm employed elsewhere in the industry.
My question is, what can BALPA do? I'd imagine IA wouldn't have any effect at the moment due to the lack of flights to disrupt and media attention being focused elsewhere. So is it just a case of negotiating and hoping to mitigate some of the worst-case options slightly? Or will they be able to find leverage through other means? Hopefully dragging out negotiations for as long as possible may allow for some economic recovery and weaken BA's case for making some of these highly opportunistic changes.

Either way wishing you all the best outcome possible under the circumstances.

Last edited by The Nutts Mutts; 30th Apr 2020 at 09:34.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 09:20
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Kirks gusset View Post
BA is only trying to "survive" for the future.
If they were only trying to survive for the future, it would be only too obvious that the measures they had suggested were temporary (by temporary i mean up to a few years), and were't detrimental to current agreements, rather simply a reduction in available work with an associated reduction in pay. That letter posted above reads entirely differently: it is an unprecedented (and wholly unnecessary) land grab, because they view that they will get away with it. They are seemingly using a time where people are at their most vulnerable to stick the knife further in.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 09:40
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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There is a VERY important theme in these Posts:

Originally Posted by RoyHudd View Post
Belated apology to Maximum Pete. You were indeed too subtle for me and my dim brain.

From chatting to a pal today, it seems that certain pension-rich 60+-year olds are happily operating long haul flights for BA with no view to retiring now and helping out others. Very sad. Selfish people. There were some at bmi too, evidently not yourself.
Originally Posted by Fly747 View Post
I'm sorry Huddy boy but I really have to reply to that; I'm an older pilot and not being selfish at all, certainly no more selfish than you sound.
I have a family to support, kids in uni, elderly parents and only a few years left to work before that is it for 20+ years of retirement. Many of you meanwhile have years of employment ahead of you and if the airlines don't bounce back you can do something else.
I still enjoy my job. I'm living this life for me and mine, not for you and yours. I owe you nothing. Good luck to all; I ain't going nowheres voluntarily. Nothing sad in it at all.

Originally Posted by Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP View Post
I had always planned on jacking it in at 60. Life changed drastically a few years ago and it'll have to be 65 now. If I could go at 60 I would. But it won't be happening.

There is also the inconvenient gap of two years between compulsory retirement at 65 and getting my state pension at 67.

Back to the topic. Good luck to all at BA and their appointed reps tasked with sorting this out as fairly as possible.
How can someone be labeled as 'pension rich'? Has anyone looked into what has been happening to pension funds so far this year? I think that a lot of people's pension planning is being rather shaken up at the moment.

I have been at the end of "you younger guys have lots of time ahead of you to build up a pension somewhere else" comment when turfed out due to redundancy (those exact words ere used to me personally) so I can understand that end of the problem. I am now older and I can understand Fly747's and Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP's situations. Probably the most important point is Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP's "...the inconvenient gap of two years between compulsory retirement at 65 and getting my state pension at 67." That is not only a problem that older pilots will be facing shortly but with the way the industry appears to be going as a whole, those in their 20s now could well be banging their heads against exactly that problem, or an even bigger gap, in future years.


I have been VERY fortunate to have continued flying 'as normal' (although nothing is normal now!). Taxiing past rows of aeroplanes parked and sealed up at almost every airport in several countries and walking through empty terminals with everything closed and almost no lights on, some even becoming dusty after having been thriving terminals only a short while ago, is very, very, very sobering (and weird). If you haven't been able to see it, you probably don't really want to. This problem is much, much bigger than any one of your airlines, no matter how big they are. Best not to become lonely individualists bickering about what someone else might or might not be doing. A lot of pilots are going to be in very 'fragile' situations. Trying to understand each other and if possible support each other would be the most helpful way ahead.
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