Flybe in trouble ?
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Tinkler has sold out and licking his wounds after his experiences with Stobart and FlyBE
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/85425
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/85425
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The tinkler deal was his attempt at sinking the virgin takeover to try and get at stobart, it didn't work out and this little venture has cost him a fortune.
Also worth noting his shares where in an Asset less Flybe PLC
Also worth noting his shares where in an Asset less Flybe PLC
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Get at Stobart. He was a significant part of Stobart. He was in dispute with those managing Stobart,
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Can of whup-ass opened by The Times today:
Not everyone understands how commercial loans work. So how lucky Mark Anderson can explain. The Flybe boss is trying to prise £100 million out of the government. And all via Boris Johnson’s new “levelling up” policy: one aimed, apparently, at keeping the bank accounts of the airline’s owners up to the levels they like.
Still, don’t accuse Mr Anderson of demanding any sweetheart terms for a business owned by the billionaires behind Virgin Atlantic — Sir Richard Branson and Delta Air Lines — plus New York hedge fund Cyrus Capital and Stobart. As he told Flybe staff: “We are in conversation with the government around a financial loan — a loan, not a bailout — a commercial loan, but that is the same as any loan we’d take from any bank.”
Really? So why not talk to a bank, then? Short answer: because after the stunts that Flybe’s owners have pulled with its assets, they’d struggle to get a commercial loan. As Companies House filings show, there’s almost zero security left.
Having bought the assets for just £2.8 million last February, one of the owners’ first moves was to strike a deal with Global Loans Agency Services: a trustee for their stakes that takes security over certain assets. So it’s a sort of middleman between Flybe’s owners and its assets. Or at least those that can’t fly off: lessors already had security over most of the 67 turboprop planes.
The rest of the assets, including buildings, aircraft engines and receivables, then look to have been divvied up between the owners. Filings show that Flybe’s holding company — Connect Airways — is both “chargors” and “guarantors” for asset deals. Indeed, the document says: “Each chargor shall attach to a visible part of each item of specified equipment owned by it and with a value in excess of £10,000 . . . a clear and distinctive label.”
The upshot? Well, should Flybe go bust, the owners have a charge over specific assets: enough, maybe, to eliminate any losses. True, they claim to have injected £110 million. But it’s questionable how much of that was cash. Stobart’s £45 million, say, was mainly its regional airline and aircraft-leasing wing, which experts reckon were worth nothing like that. To boot, by using Global Loans, the owners avoid a bunfight over any future carve-up.
On top came the owners’ wheeze with Flybe’s Heathrow slots. They switched Newquay flights under the taxpayer-funded “public service obligation” regime to Gatwick: a dodge, potentially to the benefit of Virgin Atlantic, that unlocked an estimated £60 million of value.
And now, on top of a £10 million holiday on air passenger duty, they want a £100 million taxpayer loan. They can afford to inject fresh equity. Without that, no bank would lend to a loss-making airline whose wealthy owners were up to these sorts of capers. And neither should the government. Indeed, the money would be far better spent subsidising essential routes. Not minted owners intent on looking after themselves
Still, don’t accuse Mr Anderson of demanding any sweetheart terms for a business owned by the billionaires behind Virgin Atlantic — Sir Richard Branson and Delta Air Lines — plus New York hedge fund Cyrus Capital and Stobart. As he told Flybe staff: “We are in conversation with the government around a financial loan — a loan, not a bailout — a commercial loan, but that is the same as any loan we’d take from any bank.”
Really? So why not talk to a bank, then? Short answer: because after the stunts that Flybe’s owners have pulled with its assets, they’d struggle to get a commercial loan. As Companies House filings show, there’s almost zero security left.
Having bought the assets for just £2.8 million last February, one of the owners’ first moves was to strike a deal with Global Loans Agency Services: a trustee for their stakes that takes security over certain assets. So it’s a sort of middleman between Flybe’s owners and its assets. Or at least those that can’t fly off: lessors already had security over most of the 67 turboprop planes.
The rest of the assets, including buildings, aircraft engines and receivables, then look to have been divvied up between the owners. Filings show that Flybe’s holding company — Connect Airways — is both “chargors” and “guarantors” for asset deals. Indeed, the document says: “Each chargor shall attach to a visible part of each item of specified equipment owned by it and with a value in excess of £10,000 . . . a clear and distinctive label.”
The upshot? Well, should Flybe go bust, the owners have a charge over specific assets: enough, maybe, to eliminate any losses. True, they claim to have injected £110 million. But it’s questionable how much of that was cash. Stobart’s £45 million, say, was mainly its regional airline and aircraft-leasing wing, which experts reckon were worth nothing like that. To boot, by using Global Loans, the owners avoid a bunfight over any future carve-up.
On top came the owners’ wheeze with Flybe’s Heathrow slots. They switched Newquay flights under the taxpayer-funded “public service obligation” regime to Gatwick: a dodge, potentially to the benefit of Virgin Atlantic, that unlocked an estimated £60 million of value.
And now, on top of a £10 million holiday on air passenger duty, they want a £100 million taxpayer loan. They can afford to inject fresh equity. Without that, no bank would lend to a loss-making airline whose wealthy owners were up to these sorts of capers. And neither should the government. Indeed, the money would be far better spent subsidising essential routes. Not minted owners intent on looking after themselves
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Now that it is owned by the group who owns it now the only way it will provide public services is if they are paid handsomely to do so. They are asset strippers and will only provide a "service" if it is more profitable than stripping it.
COW should never have forced the previous shareholders to sell. breaking it down for asset value or selling slices of it to other regional operators would have been better for Britain
They are not paying APD, they are not paying landing fees or similar services at Airports, they are putting charges on assets to prevent other Creditors to stand in line to secure them, they are in the process of diverting landing slots at Heathrow to their benefit.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ing-bowl-debt/
They got a 10m tax deferral which is basically an interest free loan and are lookign for another 100m
The only thing British Politicians should be doing now is directing this company to the FRC/corporate enforcement authorities.
COW should never have forced the previous shareholders to sell. breaking it down for asset value or selling slices of it to other regional operators would have been better for Britain
They are not paying APD, they are not paying landing fees or similar services at Airports, they are putting charges on assets to prevent other Creditors to stand in line to secure them, they are in the process of diverting landing slots at Heathrow to their benefit.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ing-bowl-debt/
They got a 10m tax deferral which is basically an interest free loan and are lookign for another 100m
The only thing British Politicians should be doing now is directing this company to the FRC/corporate enforcement authorities.
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Now that it is owned by the group who owns it now the only way it will provide public services is if they are paid handsomely to do so. They are asset strippers and will only provide a "service" if it is more profitable than stripping it.
COW should never have forced the previous shareholders to sell. breaking it down for asset value or selling slices of it to other regional operators would have been better for Britain
They are not paying APD, they are not paying landing fees or similar services at Airports, they are putting charges on assets to prevent other Creditors to stand in line to secure them, they are in the process of diverting landing slots at Heathrow to their benefit.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ing-bowl-debt/
They got a 10m tax deferral which is basically an interest free loan and are lookign for another 100m
The only thing British Politicians should be doing now is directing this company to the FRC/corporate enforcement authorities.
COW should never have forced the previous shareholders to sell. breaking it down for asset value or selling slices of it to other regional operators would have been better for Britain
They are not paying APD, they are not paying landing fees or similar services at Airports, they are putting charges on assets to prevent other Creditors to stand in line to secure them, they are in the process of diverting landing slots at Heathrow to their benefit.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ing-bowl-debt/
They got a 10m tax deferral which is basically an interest free loan and are lookign for another 100m
The only thing British Politicians should be doing now is directing this company to the FRC/corporate enforcement authorities.
Well for asset strippers they sure didn't pick the right Business, Flybe's liabilities well outweigh any value from their assets (do some research), so no benefit there, more angry talk about shareholders, are you yet another Jordan Belfort "wanna be" that got stung bad on the stocks I assume??
This lot have piled well over 100M into Flybe and are now pilling in another 50... seems a great way to strip assets down that does.
Flybe owns nothing, all the "assets" have been transferred to the consortium so if they wanted to they could have folded the company 2 weeks ago, This current deal is all a fiddle all pre-planned for weeks/months between Connect and Government, Government keeps its pledges from its manifesto and "saves British connectivity" and Flybe/Virgin get a nice 100M loan to top them up while they weather "unforeseen" circumstances, all without the investors having to dig any deeper into their pockets
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If your "research" comes from the Times, then I think we are done here.....
The same paper suggested they fix the problems by simply raising prices...if only it was that simple.
The same paper suggested they fix the problems by simply raising prices...if only it was that simple.
Last edited by Livesinafield; 28th Jan 2020 at 19:58.
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I can also research your previous posts and see that you fly fixed wing aircraft and are familiar with operations on a Q400 while frequenting a primarily UK-centric forum.
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I can also research your previous posts and see that you fly fixed wing aircraft and are familiar with operations on a Q400 while frequenting a primarily UK-centric forum.
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It is strange to see you speak so authoritatively on the topic of FlyBE's finances considering you spend your time in a cockpit, not a boardroom.
I question your motivations for contributing to the discussion.
I question your motivations for contributing to the discussion.
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Other than deferment of tax / money owed, I am not sure flybe has seen much in the way of new cash recently. This article today suggests their whole creditor ledger is suffering
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/n...edium=linkedin
'bill
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/n...edium=linkedin
'bill
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They will continue to run the airline if someone(i.e. Government/Taxpayers) makes it "worth their while" otherwise they'll extract what they can from it and walk away. I can only assume that the only companies they are in any way square with are the Lessors as they can repossess their assets and they are highly mobile.
I'm not trying to start rumours but the one thing I'd like to hear from those within FlyBE is that maintenance isn't being skimped while the company is being put through the wringer. I'm not saying that maintenance is being skimped but it would just be nice to hear it as the Management appear to be playing fast and loose with absolutely everything else.
I'm not trying to start rumours but the one thing I'd like to hear from those within FlyBE is that maintenance isn't being skimped while the company is being put through the wringer. I'm not saying that maintenance is being skimped but it would just be nice to hear it as the Management appear to be playing fast and loose with absolutely everything else.
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if they increase the fare by half the APD removed and make a profit then they survive.
This gives them time to reorganise and also informs public policy. Do we prefer to subsidise the PSO or adjust APD and leave it private.
I could try to pull the financials and look if that's possible, but given how long they have been in distress without folding the hole on the price of the tickets can't be that large.
I confess I just added to their problems. I cancelled that booking and travelled to Edinburgh by train instead. Same price, 1st class rail travel, arrive at the station 10 minutes before departure, walk straight to a taxi on arrival, no security, no standing in line, less total travel time, free bacon butty, stations at both ends more conveniently placed than airports, wifi all the way so almost no time lost. Sadly, domestic travel between hubs also served by rail is always going to be a difficult business model for an airline.