Flybe in trouble ?

[Jetscream 32]

Originally Posted by bean

Fascinated to know where the aircraft are coming from, but still a drop in the ocean for Sou

Also, a very brave move when everyone is cutting capacity due to Covid-19 and appears to be little or no containment in the spread currently. The market still has further to fall before it recovers - making those kinds of commitments to fixed costs of recruitment and integration and possibly additional aircraft either ACMI or dry leased they are either clever or stupid.... I can't work out which it is yet!

Whilst it is a horrendous time currently for Flybe staff - I'd be more focused on conserving existing cash in the face of the current air travel turmoil and not announcing routes to get people excited and win publicity for the sake of it. Someone is going to look a right tit if the market continues to plummet and even Loganair start feeling it and have to consider parking up or laying off staff!

[Sallyann1234]

Airline Passenger Duty should not have been applied to internal flights. Without that unreasonable debt hanging over FlyBe they might just have struggled through the Covid crisis.

[cashash]

Originally Posted by Sallyann1234

Airline Passenger Duty should not have been applied to internal flights. Without that unreasonable debt hanging over FlyBe they might just have struggled through the Covid crisis.

Isnt that the problem? - due to existing single market rules that remain in place until the end of the year, we cannot scrap APD for internal flights without scrapping it throughout the entire Single Market ie: all flights in Europe.

Greta would have had a meltdown.

[OPENDOOR]

Loganair takes over 16 Flybe routes

Some good news then.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...-flybe-routes/

[anson harris]

If you think they're going to be reducing APD in any way shape or form because we've now entered the glorious sunlit uplands, I think you're going to be disappointed. If anything, it will go up.

[Iwillhavethefish]

Does anyone know what will happen to the Heathrow slots? The government lifted the restriction on what routes those slot could be used on in January, Flybe then transfers some of its Heathrow flights to gatwick. Did virgin/delta end up with a brilliant deal for Heathrow slots and then pulled the funding on Flybe leaving it to fail?
The government needs to look into that

[Richard Dangle]

I don't know if it is due to poor management, CEOs stealing money in the form of bonuses, poor internet integration, poor government, lack of advertising, or something else.

Or possibly a global industry that has created an unstable monster in its desire to get the biggest number of people possible airborne, for the lowest possible cost?

Or is that unthinkable hereabouts?

[tinmug]

I guess the government couldn't afford a 100 million bailout because HS2 is already 50 billion (50 thousand million) over budget, if my understanding of a billon is correct.

[GKOC41]

Originally Posted by Uplinker

First Monarch, then Thomas Cook, now Flybe.

I don't know if it is due to poor management, CEOs stealing money in the form of bonuses, poor internet integration, poor government, lack of advertising, or something else.

Whatever the cause, it is an absolute disgrace.

My sincere sympathies to all in Flybe - some of whom are former colleagues. Keep your chins up and good luck.

Uplinker

Uplinker - name the last big AOC that started in the UK?
The last one i can remember albeit a medium one was Cargologicair but they have gone also.
In my XX year airline career I've worked for 9 different UK Airlines, anyone who know's me think i'm the kiss of death. The number of UK AOC's have dwindled significantly, many really struggled as they didn't have a level playing field on Flight Time Limitations but let's not go there. They didnt have bonus schemes either.
Just a sad state of affairs. Unfortunately, the pilot job cycle has gone from great to crap in one swoop.

[andrasz]

Originally Posted by Richard Dangle

I don't know if it is due to poor management, CEOs stealing money in the form of bonuses, poor internet integration, poor government, lack of advertising, or something else.

Or possibly a global industry that has created an unstable monster in its desire to get the biggest number of people possible airborne, for the lowest possible cost?

Or is that unthinkable hereabouts?

I think you are spot on. Add to this the fact that the principal industry service providers (airports, atco, fuel, plane manufacturers) are effectively unregulated monopolies who will attempt to suck the last drop from even a viable business, and will pull a weak one under in no time. It would be a very different (and interesting) landscape if all these service providers would get a fixed percentage of the fare paid rather than a flat amount that they determine themselves.

[Richard Dangle]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51748139

It appears that a number of industry analysts are on the same page. (My bold)

"This is a very difficult time for the airline industry and it will be about conserving cash," said Greg Waldron, Asia managing editor of Flightglobal magazine. "It will be a very challenging time for those airlines who don't have a lot of cash, especially those that have been involved in a price war."

My heart goes out to those losing their jobs and I have no desire to be any sort of doom-monger to others who may be simarly affected, but randomnly blaming governments, CEOs, managements teams and Uncle Tom Cobbly, for being those primarily responsible for creating an industry full of cash strapped, unstable commercial enterprises lacks reality and smacks of victim culture.

We are all to blame, in some degree, for the state of the airline industry, whether we have chosen to invest our careers in it, or we merely use it to get ourselves to the nearest sunny beach.

And if people don't want accept a small portion of the blame, then fair enough...but lets not have fake news about the state of the industry....absolutely nobody working in this industry has any excuse for being blind to the facts.

[The Bartender]

Originally Posted by andrasz

It would be a very different (and interesting) landscape if all these service providers would get a fixed percentage of the fare paid rather than a flat amount that they determine themselves.

You would have to do the same with wages then. 😂

[Widger]

Originally Posted by Richard Dangle View Post
I don't know if it is due to poor management, CEOs stealing money in the form of bonuses, poor internet integration, poor government, lack of advertising, or something else.

Or possibly a global industry that has created an unstable monster in its desire to get the biggest number of people possible airborne, for the lowest possible cost?

Or is that unthinkable hereabouts?

In my humble opinion the common factor with all the failures is debt. Debt that is so large it cannot be managed. Debt that is exacerbated by new aircraft orders, shareholder dividends, profits given to franchisees rather than running it yourself, low load factors, mixed aircraft fleets with associated costs of training/lack of crew flexibility and of course, venture capitalists sucking the business dry . Add to all that competition on certain routes and the money coming in is not even enough to service that debt. Cash is and will always be king. APD is a factor. On the few times I have looked at flights for my yoof who is at Uni in Leeds, the flights were just not competitive with the trains, (well very rarely) even with advance bookings. That £26 (standard rate band A) each way can mean the difference between the choice of rail or air. Then again, the Extinction rebellion types and environmentalists among us will say "good, APD is having the effect of lowering air travel". Until evidence can be provided that over a certain number of miles, air travel is more environmentally friendly than the train per passenger kilometer, then I am afraid I can only see things moving in one direction.

[Wycombe]

Some updates this morning from Blue Islands:
(they operated "rescue flights" to EXT and BHX from the islands yesterday)

BIRMINGHAM & EXETER - UPDATE

Further announcements relating to commencement of a new Blue Islands scheduled service to Birmingham and Exeter from both Guernsey and Jersey will be announced over the coming days. In the meantime, customers are assured of continued service to both of these destinations.

CUSTOMERS WITH FUTURE BOOKINGS MADE VIA FLYBE.COM

Blue Islands is seeking engagement with E&Y, the appointed Administrators of Flybe in respect to future bookings. Currently funds relating to bookings for future travel made via flybe.com are withheld by Flybe’s merchant card acquirers, in order to safeguard consumer funds in the event of Flybe’s collapse. Blue Islands is seeking to clarify whether these acquirers will recognise Blue Islands as the carrying party in such transactions. Or whether customers with future bookings on Blue Islands services, made at flybe.com will need to request a refund from their card providers and rebook via blueislands.com. A further announcement will be made once this is clear.

.....which basically means I think that BI are trying to get their hands directly on the cash that went through Flybe's booking engine for flights that they operate.

[bluefunkybassman]

Looks like the Exeter and Birmingham to Guernsey routes will be taken over by Aurigny, not Blue Islands. I don't have 10 posts so can't post the URL, but it's on the News page on Aurigny's website.

[EGTE]

Reading both companies press releases it appears that Blue Islands will operate Jersey/Guernsey to Exeter once daily.
Aurigny will operate Guernsey to Exeter 4 days per week.

[nicolai]

Originally Posted by Sallyann1234

Airline Passenger Duty should not have been applied to internal flights. Without that unreasonable debt hanging over FlyBe they might just have struggled through the Covid crisis.

APD is both an environmental tax and a revenue raising measure. Why should flights inside the UK be exempt when flights to outside are not? What makes aviation inside the UK so much more special than to outside the UK? Why is my London to Edinburgh flight any different from my London to Amsterdam flight for tax or environmental purposes?

Flybe had a small valid point when they complained they were being double taxed because a return journey from UK to another country is taxed for one takeoff from the UK but return flights in the UK are taxed for two takeoffs from the UK. That's the only part of any APD argument that holds water.

If your airline business can't survive with the same taxes that other airlines pay to fly the same places, then the problem is not the taxation. It's how you run your business - and that applies outside aviation too. A business that can't pay its taxes, or its employees decent wages, has no Gods-given right to survive.

[Wycombe]

Reading both companies press releases it appears that Blue Islands will operate Jersey/Guernsey to Exeter once daily.
Aurigny will operate Guernsey to Exeter 4 days per week

So, I think this represents an overall capacity reduction, and a sharing of the risk, which is actually quite sensible!

[RetiredBA/BY]

So, it is clear that FlyBe was an important part of the UK infrastructure linking many smaller and “ remote “ airports around the country thus providing a valuable essential connectivity facility.

Heres my take:

The UK government should immediately nationalise FlyBe and resume this connectivity at the earliest time, like next week !

After all, we are spending billions on HS2 just to reduce journey time on a limited number of routes already quite well served.

The government spent billions supporting mismanaged banks.

It intends to nationalise a failing, failed northern railway network. Cost ?

We are spending many millions on so called “ smart “ motorways. Bloody dangerous in my view.

We throw away billions on overseas aid much of which we know is wasted.

Time to support our own people and supporting FB and the connectivity they provided would be peanuts in comparison to the above.

... and if my proposals are. In contradiction to EU rules and they kick up, tell Brussels to get lost, we are leaving, have left the EU and this is an internal UK matter

A nationalised FB would be NO threat to Ryanair or BA but if OReilly and Walsh whinge about it offer THEM the chance to run the new FB which would then have no routes duplicating , say BA and Ryanair.

If they make a profit they can keep it, if they make loss so be it, thvey had their chance and their losses prove their whingeing was baseless.

Government support for essential “ connectivity” flights is not new as the Norwegian Government and Wideroe are well aware.

Time for some “out of the box “ and creative thinking by Johnson and Schapps if they are really serious about connectivity.

[Airbanda]

Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY

After all, we are spending billions on HS2 just to reduce journey time on a limited number of routes already quite well served.

That's not right. The main driver for HS2 is capacity. The lines out of Euston and Kings Cross are full up and HS2 will relieve them of long distance services freeing up space for local traffic and freight. The speed gain is a by product of building to modern rather than Victorian standards.