Plane crashes near Kazakhstan airport
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A quick thank you to the informed sources who have commented to date (and those to come.) As a confirmed PPRuNe lurker with long experience in various facets of aviation ops, it was a shock to me to realise that I'd never had to get into the fine detail of what determines the need for de-icing on the ground, nor how it gets done in today's world.
So the steers to relevant sources have been invaluable. I've also been reminded that safe operations in icing or snowy conditions are very expensive in time, direct cost and indirect cost (people time, reduced throughput etc.)
This brought back a memory of being SLF on a jet where the first de-icing was not successful. There were well-meant if ignorant suggestions from some (management) quarters, keen to see the aircraft depart, that 'most' areas met standard and this was good enough.
This provoked some very very blunt responses for which I am now even more grateful. Classic situation where ground engineering and/or PIC can come under an awful lot of pressure to cut corners.
So the steers to relevant sources have been invaluable. I've also been reminded that safe operations in icing or snowy conditions are very expensive in time, direct cost and indirect cost (people time, reduced throughput etc.)
This brought back a memory of being SLF on a jet where the first de-icing was not successful. There were well-meant if ignorant suggestions from some (management) quarters, keen to see the aircraft depart, that 'most' areas met standard and this was good enough.
This provoked some very very blunt responses for which I am now even more grateful. Classic situation where ground engineering and/or PIC can come under an awful lot of pressure to cut corners.
He informed me that they don't have any Type IV available, only Type 3 fluid. . Well I said in that case, we are going to the Hotel, and can he arrange crew transport ?
He came up to cockpit later, as I was talking to the F/O. Apparently he had "found " enough Type IV to use after all. So I told the Station Manager, I wanted to see him , standing in front of the aircraft , as it was deiced to ensure, (not trusting contract deice crew) that both wings and tail were given a proper overspray of Type IV fluid at the end.
If our 45 minute holdover time had been exceeded, before we could takeoff, we would have returned to the gate. Period.
Last edited by Retired DC9 driver; 29th Dec 2019 at 15:28.
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You may be right. I always called the liquid that washes the snow off the plane "glycol" and the orange stuff they pour on the wings anti.... OOOOH! That's where I got "lost in translation". Anti-icing fluid!!! I see my mistake now. Thank you!
Much well informed speculation as ever but the questions seem to me to be around what was DIFFERENT about this flight. From what we (appear to) know:
Flight crew were experienced
Conditions not unusual for this airfield
Airframe a regular in this environment
Well-used airfield (ground crews experienced)
What made the difference for THIS take-off?
Flight crew were experienced
Conditions not unusual for this airfield
Airframe a regular in this environment
Well-used airfield (ground crews experienced)
What made the difference for THIS take-off?
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This is probably another dumb idea, and I'm sure you can all tell me why it wouldn't work - but what about keeping the skin of the aircraft warm enough that ice wouldn't form? Would the issue be excess weight/fuel consumption for a heating system, or are there other issues I'm not thinking of?
Another problem I see is how much is "warm enough". Landing in Northern Siberia in December with 10% humidity at -65C is one thing, landing in Oslo in February with 100% humidity at -7C is another. Also, icing doesn't only occur in cold climates. Land at some tropical place, and your wings will frost up from cold fuel inside the wings. And the system would have to calculate all that and make sure it doesn't overheat the airplane while effectively de-icing it. And you shouldn't underestimate the consequences of overheating since most modern planes are made, at least to some extent, of composites held together with various "glues"... or sometimes with actual glue.
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Much well informed speculation as ever but the questions seem to me to be around what was DIFFERENT about this flight. From what we (appear to) know:
Flight crew were experienced
Conditions not unusual for this airfield
Airframe a regular in this environment
Well-used airfield (ground crews experienced)
What made the difference for THIS take-off?
Flight crew were experienced
Conditions not unusual for this airfield
Airframe a regular in this environment
Well-used airfield (ground crews experienced)
What made the difference for THIS take-off?
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Human error knows no boundaries.
There is a fine line between making an error of judgement and a willful disregard of basic safety rules. Like it or not, some cultures (and I would by no means single out one, can think of several...) are more prone for the latter. Luckily you happen to live in a region where by and large such rules are respected and adhered to.
As for the accident flight, what was different... ? A good analogy may be south/south east Asia, where runway excursions provide a perfect record of the arrival of the monsoon season. Change of seasons are always a risky period, requiring more attention and discipline.
As for the accident flight, what was different... ? A good analogy may be south/south east Asia, where runway excursions provide a perfect record of the arrival of the monsoon season. Change of seasons are always a risky period, requiring more attention and discipline.
The JFK system is located adjacent to Hangar 12, the former TWA aircraft maintenance facility – a 12-minute taxi ride away from the winter departure runway 4L/22R.
“The Port Authority requires that during major storms, every plane must have a departure slot before it is allowed to come out for deicing. The Port Authority and the control tower liason so planes should then be able to go directly to the runway for takeoff,” says Sharkey. Louis adds, “You have a clear shot to the end of the runway after you deice.”
“We are looking for an average complete throughput time of under 15 minutes for a B-747.
“The Port Authority requires that during major storms, every plane must have a departure slot before it is allowed to come out for deicing. The Port Authority and the control tower liason so planes should then be able to go directly to the runway for takeoff,” says Sharkey. Louis adds, “You have a clear shot to the end of the runway after you deice.”
“We are looking for an average complete throughput time of under 15 minutes for a B-747.
In comparison, a fleet of de-icing rigs are far cheaper to buy, are mobile to get to wherever planes are parked to work in parallel, and can be parked in a very small space during the warmer months taking almost no space.
Don't get me wrong - the proposed buildings appear a good idea at first glance, however there will be some big hurdles to overcome purely because of their size, and the number required for effective operation.
To be fair to the Kazakhs, and I have a fair bit of experience working with them, they are very much rule followers, as opposed to rule-disregarders or ignorers.
I don't know for sure what happened with the Fokker, but two things are sure.
1. Pilots who work there know a lot about ice, iceing, deiceing etc. It's meat and drink to a Kazakh pilot.
2. Fokker pilots surely know about its reputation when carrying ice- any ice.
I think this'll turn out to maybe be undetected clear ice, or some unfortunate combination of circumstances- perhaps including a weight and balance issue, rather than recklessness.
Kazakh pilots are very wary by nature.
I don't know for sure what happened with the Fokker, but two things are sure.
1. Pilots who work there know a lot about ice, iceing, deiceing etc. It's meat and drink to a Kazakh pilot.
2. Fokker pilots surely know about its reputation when carrying ice- any ice.
I think this'll turn out to maybe be undetected clear ice, or some unfortunate combination of circumstances- perhaps including a weight and balance issue, rather than recklessness.
Kazakh pilots are very wary by nature.
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So I talked to station manager, and said we "will need Type IV deicing wing and tail".
Apparently he had "found " enough Type IV to deice after all. So I told the Station Manager, I wanted to see him , standing in front of the aircraft , as it was deiced to ensure, (not trusting contract deice crew) that both wings and tail were properly de-iced with type IV fluid.
Apparently he had "found " enough Type IV to deice after all. So I told the Station Manager, I wanted to see him , standing in front of the aircraft , as it was deiced to ensure, (not trusting contract deice crew) that both wings and tail were properly de-iced with type IV fluid.
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviati...rframe-208.htm
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Small correction but jets “Deice” with Type 1 and “Anti-ice” with Type IV.
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviati...rframe-208.htm
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviati...rframe-208.htm
As for the debate about de-icing aircraft quickly enough, for it to remain effective; ie maximum "holdover time" in precip, sometimes the safest plan is to finish the de-icing with an overspray of Type IV. Like this picture, I posted previously. "Green is good". In light freezing rain, after de-icing, and an overspray of Type IV, you have a holdover time of 45 minutes , on my old charts.
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The matter of icing (and de-icing) wouldn't be a matter if the INDUSTRY would take it seriously.
At the times being, there ARE paints and coatings enough durable to make almost all ACs "NON-ICEABLE".
There are paints to AVOID graffiti's stick to walls, but OWNERS do not want to spend in those paintings.
There ARE coatings that AVOID 100% a possible surface icing of ANYTHING. Mainly sub-products of SILICONES.
IF those coatings/paints were used, it would be 100% recommendable the "russian de-icing method" shown in a previous post video
At the times being, there ARE paints and coatings enough durable to make almost all ACs "NON-ICEABLE".
There are paints to AVOID graffiti's stick to walls, but OWNERS do not want to spend in those paintings.
There ARE coatings that AVOID 100% a possible surface icing of ANYTHING. Mainly sub-products of SILICONES.
IF those coatings/paints were used, it would be 100% recommendable the "russian de-icing method" shown in a previous post video
The matter of icing (and de-icing) wouldn't be a matter if the INDUSTRY would take it seriously.
At the times being, there ARE paints and coatings enough durable to make almost all ACs "NON-ICEABLE".
There are paints to AVOID graffiti's stick to walls, but OWNERS do not want to spend in those paintings.
There ARE coatings that AVOID 100% a possible surface icing of ANYTHING. Mainly sub-products of SILICONES.
IF those coatings/paints were used, it would be 100% recommendable the "russian de-icing method" shown in a previous post video
At the times being, there ARE paints and coatings enough durable to make almost all ACs "NON-ICEABLE".
There are paints to AVOID graffiti's stick to walls, but OWNERS do not want to spend in those paintings.
There ARE coatings that AVOID 100% a possible surface icing of ANYTHING. Mainly sub-products of SILICONES.
IF those coatings/paints were used, it would be 100% recommendable the "russian de-icing method" shown in a previous post video
It's only a matter of time before somebody suggest a solar panel array large enough to cover the whole airport
And install a spring system below than array.
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My point is this: we all understand the dangers of a contaminated wing. It was even quoted several posts back specifically how little contamination is needed to reduce a wing’s performance significantly. The dangers of icing are drummed into pilots ad nauseum yet here we have a flight literally taking off with snow on the wing! Even if we go out on a limb and assume it was a ferry flight, with no fare paying passengers, that still gives a minimum of three people on board. Two pilots and the person with the iPhone, filming it. The two pilots must have known it was dangerous; the cameraman would surely have been thinking “well this is a little unusual” because he was sitting there filming it! I’m sure take off performance was impaired, just not to the point where planet and aircraft remained inextricably bound, but it sets a precedent for “yes I should de-ice, but hey, the guy on the YouTube video got away with it - maybe I will too!”
The question was “have we not learned from Air Florida?” I stand vehemently behind my response: No - we haven’t.
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The danger of freezing fog cannot be understated. Freezing fog contains super cooled water particles that will freeze instantly when disturbed by a rapidly moving surface.
I have had propeller blades collect 1/2cm of clear ice just on a short taxi in freezing fog.
The same is possible on the fan and compressor section of a jet engine.
I have had propeller blades collect 1/2cm of clear ice just on a short taxi in freezing fog.
The same is possible on the fan and compressor section of a jet engine.
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The danger of freezing fog cannot be understated. Freezing fog contains super cooled water particles that will freeze instantly when disturbed by a rapidly moving surface.
I have had propeller blades collect 1/2cm of clear ice just on a short taxi in freezing fog.
The same is possible on the fan and compressor section of a jet engine.
I have had propeller blades collect 1/2cm of clear ice just on a short taxi in freezing fog.
The same is possible on the fan and compressor section of a jet engine.