Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Sim recurrent training : In uniform or not ?

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Sim recurrent training : In uniform or not ?

Old 13th Dec 2019, 00:32
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: NZ
Age: 33
Posts: 15
Air NZ we do
Visual_Approach is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2019, 03:07
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: europe
Age: 32
Posts: 35
I think we should all stay true to ourselves and turn up for training to reflect the industry standards; with our pants down and walking on all fours.
level_change is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2019, 06:58
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 2,922
When uniform is not prescribed for sim sessions people come in a wide variety of clothing which can make the atmosphere very casual. In a Simulator session a lot of play acting is involved to make it life like. Wearing uniform can be the first step because you don't fly without uniform. Then again it's up to the airline. Pilots have to be loyal to the pay check.
vilas is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2019, 12:00
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Europe
Posts: 75
Originally Posted by PAJ View Post
easyJet introduced uniform for all sim events from 1st Oct 19 - professional standards was quoted as the reason as we started using our 3 new sim centres. In reality, think management had got quite frustrated that the attire some were deeming acceptable. T-shirts, ripped jeans, dirty trainers...had everyone worn smart jeans or chinos and a collared shirt, I doubt this change would have manifested itself. Instructors also now all in uniform too. Would be nice not to be in uniform but there are bigger fights to be had at present I think was the general consensus.
With the state I observe most Easyjet pilots in walking around the terminals, youíd think they think theyíre always wearing their civvies anyway! (No hat, sweater instead of a jacket and a backpack slung over their shoulders... how does that convey ďprofessionalĒ?!).

Joking aside, I personally like to feel comfortable in the sim and thankfully our airlineís common-sense approach to this is to allow smart-casual dress for all sim sessions and training courses (we know how to act professionally even when not in uniform)! Also, Iím a grown-up and I can afford to buy/pick my outfit out from my wardrobe myself - in addition Iím also capable of using a washing machine!

Itís never seemed to affect my (or my many colleagueís) performances in the sim and Iím proud of the high standard I (and as a large airline, we) usually achieve. The day I have to blame a pilot error on the fact Iím not wearing my uniform, I think Iíll have to start looking at other careers!

Iíve enjoyed reading this thread. Merry Christmas everyone.
AirUK is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2019, 12:07
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
Posts: 8,129
When uniform is not prescribed for sim sessions people come in a wide variety of clothing which can make the atmosphere very casual. In a Simulator session a lot of play acting is involved to make it life like. Wearing uniform can be the first step because you don't fly without uniform. Then again it's up to the airline. Pilots have to be loyal to the pay check.
Perhaps authoritarian, steep-cockpit-gradient companies that have had CRM issues might consider loosening up their dress standards...
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2019, 16:39
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,328
Originally Posted by Herod View Post
Not mandatory in my old company, but most of us wore uniform. "on duty" and "adds realism" are two reasons perhaps, but I would also add that if I'm going to sit in a dirty seat (and let's be honest, they are), I'll do it in the company's clothes, thank you very much.
We had to buy our uniforms and shirts.
aterpster is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2019, 16:56
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 148
Originally Posted by AirUK View Post
... The day I have to blame a pilot error on the fact Iím not wearing my uniform, I think Iíll have to start looking at other careers!
Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs View Post
Perhaps authoritarian, steep-cockpit-gradient companies that have had CRM issues might consider loosening up their dress standards...
Two very valid Posts.

I heard from a pilot in another airline that they 'wrapped up' a CRM session with this as one of the comments in the summary:
"Was there ever an incident caused by a pilot not wearing his tie? -- No!".
NoelEvans is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2019, 00:45
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Laredo, TX
Posts: 132
I never saw anyone in uniform in the sim with either of my two airlines in the states. Usually everyone was in chinos and a nice shirt. But I always wore my uniform shoes. I wanted the feel of the rudder pedals to be consistent.
jimtx is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2019, 00:41
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 561
Curious as to "what's the big deal"
I was not a pilot but was required to be in uniform, for training, so why the outcry?
Longtimer is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2019, 04:12
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
Posts: 8,129
I shakes me head in despair...
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2019, 04:49
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Antarctica
Posts: 124
I don't subscribe to the view that operating the sim in civvies, lowers performance. I sat in on a number of sim rides that our B727 crews did at United in Denver. (Even got to do to a few touch and goes which was magic stuff that would never be allowed today). It was quite normal when in a foreign city to not be wearing our military uniform and so rocking up for the sim in civvies was fine. The intensity of the sim is such that your focus is ensuring your own head space is good and that you turn out the goods in a professional manner, all the time only ever wanting to be thought of as the guy that the other guys on the squadron would be happy to fly with on a bad day. It made not one iota of difference if the guy next you was wearing his pyjamas! Like going to the dentist, the sim is a deliberately stressful place so if you can feel a bit more relaxed in civvies then I figure that's going to help not hinder.

But of course its the company's call if they want to mandate wearing of uniforms in the sim. But why would they? Air NZ's 'enclothed cognition' gives us a clue. While pitched at improving performance on the flight deck it is probably more about controlling behaviour in an otherwise non air side environment. You, know, once you slip that uniform on your standards are expected to represent company expectations...and you can be identified!! If you are wearing uniform there can be no grey area about whether you thought you were on your own time at that specific point. Given that standards of dress and behavior across society have generally slipped it's not surprising that some commercial aircrew look like they've slept in their uniforms, haven't washed or shaved, didn't bother to have a haircut so can hardly keep their hat on, shirt tails hanging out, lost their jacket somewhere and are wearing a pink jersey and that flight bag is now a ruck sack over one shoulder. Perhaps 'enclothed cognition' is long overdue for some airlines.

Sorry I can t stop there. Why the uniforms anyway? It seems that some in this thread show no pride in wearing them any way and given a choice, don't. In the the 1930's when Pan Am flew its flying boats and the first 'Clipper' names came about, dressing pilots in naval uniform with white Officers hats and navy rank, projected the image of professional seamanship more than airmanship, which was expected by passengers more familiar with boat captains than aircraft crews. The theme was picked up on and 80 years later almost every airline in the world still follows it with some even harking back to white hats. How's that working out for you Qantas guys anyway? Aviation has moved on so far from then. Airports, security and airlines are all about controlling the passenger and their expected behavior from the time they are dumped at the drop off zone until the time they depart the destination airport. I have been on flights where conveyor like processing in the windowless airports halls left me with no idea what the aircraft was that I had just boarded through the labyrinth of airport hallways, travelators and passage ways, and finally the constricted tunnels of the air bridge, let alone see the pilots encased in their castle upfront. They could have been in their jocks for all I knew..or cared.

Flying has lost it's glamour and the concept of having a 'naval officer', or 'skipper' flying our current leading edge aerospace technology seems a bit archaic and somewhat out of place. Perhaps some form of flying overalls (test pilot ish, not orange!!!) would be more appropriate for today's job, especially where interaction with passengers is only casual and occasional inside the airport? Don't get me wrong. I know there are a lot of guys and girls out there who wear their uniforms proudly and have aspired to be seen as such. They would hate to see uniforms replaced with a more purpose filled flying clothing or worse...corporate freaking tee-shirts!! Don' trust management with this...they will get it wrong! So yeah, this idea is just food for some lazy thought. But it would put paid to flip flops in the sim which one of our flight engineers was want to do. Then again, he wasn't pressing any pedals .

Last edited by Lord Farringdon; 15th Dec 2019 at 08:03.
Lord Farringdon is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2019, 06:06
  #92 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 13,234
Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
Being ex RAF where we always wore uniform,( long time ago) then into civil aviation, never could understand why civvies were worn in the sim.

Modern sims are just so superbly realistic, why not complete the job with crew wearing what they would be wearing in flight?
I take it you wore blue uniform in the cockpit? We RAF SH pilots would have looked silly flying a sim in full cold weather kit or an immersion suit! We wore smart civvies instead.

We also convinced some first timers to wear shower caps, but thatís another story!
ShyTorque is online now  
Old 15th Dec 2019, 06:21
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: FL398
Posts: 184
Originally Posted by Lord Farringdon View Post

Perhaps some form of flying overalls (test pilot ish, not orange!!!) would be more appropriate for today's job, especially where interaction with passengers is only casual and occasional inside the airport?
I dont mind the Uniform at all, but...i have always thought that would prefer to wear a fit-for-purpose flying overall (especially good shoes) if i could. More efficient, especially if walking/operating in harsh environment conditions (intense cold, icing and alike).
TheEdge is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2019, 08:26
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Having a margarita on the beach
Age: 48
Posts: 1,891
I find wearing uniform in the sim also quite useful when carrying out video debriefing to the crew. As we know, a picture worth a thousand words, and playing a short video debrief on what was done particularly well and what could have perhaps be done differently can be very useful.
sonicbum is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2019, 08:51
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Amantido
Posts: 733
How is wearing a uniform influencing an action or a general performance in the sim? I don't get it.
Banana Joe is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2019, 11:53
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Age: 76
Posts: 466
Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post


I take it you wore blue uniform in the cockpit? We RAF SH pilots would have looked silly flying a sim in full cold weather kit or an immersion suit! We wore smart civvies instead.

We also convinced some first timers to wear shower caps, but thatís another story!
No, not battle dress blues, just flying suits, a form of uniform. .

Yes you would look silly wearing an immersion suit, been there, done that, though not in a sim. A standard flying overall would seem reasonable, though.
RetiredBA/BY is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2019, 19:19
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wilts
Posts: 89
ShyTorque/RetiredBA/BY,

Today's SH crews in the sims wear flying suits, gloves, helmets and (when night training) NVG, at the very least. They occasionally wear Load Carrying Jerkins, NBC hoods (whistling handbag) and, very occasionally, weapons..
KG86 is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2019, 20:51
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: fit like min?
Posts: 18
In our Middle East airline, we wear uniform simply because the locals can't wear their traditional clothing (I.e. thobe) because of the negative G strap on the harness.

And those of you who don't think you need to wear uniform onboard, consider what the military pilot will think seeing two guys dressed in black t-shirts in the cockpit when they intercept an airliner which is out of radio contact.......
buttonpusher is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2019, 04:28
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
Posts: 8,129
I find wearing uniform in the sim also quite useful when carrying out video debriefing to the crew. As we know, a picture worth a thousand words, and playing a short video debrief on what was done particularly well and what could have perhaps be done differently can be very useful.
How so? So you can identify who's in what seat after a game of musical chairs? Surely the pilots can be identified by their ears, nose, voice...
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2019, 09:48
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,674
Originally Posted by level_change View Post
I think we should all stay true to ourselves and turn up for training to reflect the industry standards; with our pants down and walking on all fours.
And for a dose of realism to up the standard a bit more, why don't they throw in some "pilot chow"

After all it is a simulator, so feeding some slop to pilots ought deliver peak performance too.
Rated De is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.