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Easyjet pilot grounded for whatsapp message to friends

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Easyjet pilot grounded for whatsapp message to friends

Old 27th Aug 2019, 12:24
  #21 (permalink)  
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We should all take notice. This 'case' is interesting because it shows that social-media is not the proper place to air your troubles and/or grievances.
Peers, colleagues and/or friends who are not qualified to (assess someones mental state or any other 'legal' issue for that matter) make these decisions can cause enormous harm no matter how well intentioned.
This person should have sought counseling if he/she was this desperate. His/her 'peers' in the WhatsApp group could not fathom his/her state of mind and thus decided to alert his/her employer.
If he/she had sought counseling hopefully things would have been handled more discreetly and after a while he/she would have been allowed to resume duty.
Now with all the media attention such becomes very difficult even if there is no actual risk anymore.
I recall a case where someone spend almost 8 years awaiting trial for something his colleagues thought he confessed to.
"I know you believe that you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure if you realize that what you heard is not what I meant". So true!
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 12:30
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Would you fly with someone who had had chicken pox in the past? What about if they'd had a heart attack? What if they were short sighted and needed glasses?
For me that reply to Sobelena doesn't quite compare. My answers to your question would be yes, yes and yes. However, someone who may want to deliberately take their life and take a plane full of pax with them is something else. Is an alcoholic not always regarded as an alcoholic regardless of the fact they may not have touched a drop for 10 years or more?
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 12:45
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I know of at least three pilots who have killed them selves , it’s not immune to this sort of thing than any other industry.

the difference with eurowings was, he decided that wasn’t enough and wanted to be a mass murderer as well. Piece of ####.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 13:12
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Meester proach View Post
I know of at least three pilots who have killed them selves , it’s not immune to this sort of thing than any other industry.

the difference with eurowings was, he decided that wasn’t enough and wanted to be a mass murderer as well. Piece of ####.

You summed it up perfectly. The thing people don't seem to get is that wanting to end your life, and intending to commit mass murder are two unrelated things. There have been many airline pilots over the years who have taken their lives, those who choose to do it in an aircraft have gone and hired an aeroclub Cessna, not taken down an A320 full of pax.

The more airlines (and regulators) that treat mental health issues as an "instant grounding", the more pilots will choose to suffer in silence and the more unsafe the overall outcomes will be.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 13:22
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Can be tragedies on the home front and no mental illness also, impossible to know and this is not the forum for it but more in general...

Good advice earlier trying to talk to someone mature non-judgemental person with some life experience themselves...
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 16:36
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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confidentiality / safety

part of the Germanwings case that i found particularly shocking was that Andreas Lubitz's own doctor had declared him "unfit for duties" - but the doctor didn't report this to the airline.

i haven't heard anything from EASA / national governments since then to change the doctor's duty of confidentiality ... to a duty of reporting concerns to the employer.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 17:02
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Originally Posted by FarTooManyUsers View Post
part of the Germanwings case that i found particularly shocking was that Andreas Lubitz's own doctor had declared him "unfit for duties" - but the doctor didn't report this to the airline.

i haven't heard anything from EASA / national governments since then to change the doctor's duty of confidentiality ... to a duty of reporting concerns to the employer.
Unfit for duty is the general term on your sick note in germany. Now, every MD can contact the police or relevant authority if he deems the public or the patient at risk, and especially with doctors dealing with mental issues that is not completely uncommon so they are very much aware of that. The rules in that regard have not changed in Germany, and probably will not do so, even if they do, there is absolutely no need to tell your MD your occupation, so he might be very unaware of the risks any diagnosis could involve. That is why peer to peer programs have been introduced as a requirement by EASA, and the requirement to assess the mental state of any pilot during his medical.

Any mandatory reporting of your health state to your employer will assure that many pilots will refrain from mentioning any problematic issue to their MD and rather deal with it without any help, which would not be ideal at all.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 20:06
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Radgirl View Post
All pilots are licensed under aviation regulators and as part of this are subject to extensive regular medical assessments which include mental health assessments
I am interested in Easyjet's comment . My AME must have forgotten this part of the examination last time....and the time before...and the time before
I'm pretty sure that all AME's have been required to ask probing questions along the lines of "has one experienced anxiety or depression since one's last medical examination" for some time now. I can't remember the exact wording but it would certainly serve as the cursory "mental health assessment" referred to. I've heard it at EASA medical renewals for several years now at least.

So yeah, perhaps your AME forgot, but if so it doesn't speak highly of adherence to standard.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 20:13
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Denti View Post
Any mandatory reporting of your health state to your employer will assure that many pilots will refrain from mentioning any problematic issue to their MD and rather deal with it without any help, which would not be ideal at all.
In fact, it would be outright dangerous, unless, of course, employers were mandated to respond in ways that wouldn't effectively mean automatic destruction of careers.



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Old 27th Aug 2019, 22:09
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by giggitygiggity View Post
Oh do p**s off. Comments like 'blown his career' are why people keep quiet and don't bring their issues to the company. That aside, I'm not sure a whatsapp group is really social media, yes it's online, but a private conversation isn't inherently social media.
A WhatsApp group is social media
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 01:06
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Black Pudding View Post


A WhatsApp group is social media
No, it's not. I am on a WhatsApp with my Mom and Dad so we can text for free internationally. How is that even remotely close to Instagram
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 01:12
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Originally Posted by Denti View Post
mandatory reporting of your health state to your employer will assure that many pilots will refrain from mentioning any problematic issue to their MD and rather deal with it without any help, which would not be ideal at all.
No, I can see that, and I am a big fan of HIMS and no-fault reporting, because punishment for mistakes leads to not reporting of mistakes, and that doesn't make it better.
Someone with previous mental health issues not being on a shorter leash: not ideal either.
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 22:42
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hans brinker View Post
No, it's not. I am on a WhatsApp with my Mom and Dad so we can text for free internationally. How is that even remotely close to Instagram
The company I work for class any WhatsApp messages sent to a group of 2 or more as social media. We have had colleague Get into bother because of messages being sent on WhatsApp groups.
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 23:51
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Your company’s definition is stupid. They may as well classify email as social media,
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 00:37
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Company emails are sent to approved people and password protected, sharing any message received or giving someone else your log in details is a disciplinary offence.

Once proprietary information is shared outside the company’s control, it’s effectively social media. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, even PPRuNe can be accessed by anyone able to create an account. Even if you restrict your posts to friends or approved followers, there is no control over over them being passed onto third parties.

A flight attendant might take a picture of a pilot sleeping in the flight deck and post it to a company cabin crew WhatsApp group, another member thinks it’s funny and shares it on Facebook, her younger brother then shares it with his school mates, eventually it’s in a newspaper. The picture is traced back because another flight attendant informs her manager about the original WhatsApp post. The girl who took the picture gets fired.

Most companies have rules for social media and its best to follow them if you want to keep your job.
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 05:06
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Sure, but if I send a group of friends a personal email (not company email, not company email address, not proprietary company information) saying I’m not feeling well mentally, that’s not “social media” and I don’t see how sending a group message via a messaging app is either. What if I just write a hand written note, photocopy it, and send it to the same people, is that “social media”?

I will endeavour to follow company rules on social media but that doesn’t stop me thinking some of them are stupid.
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 05:40
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If you had information that another one of your company's pilots mental state was disturbed and he was talking about suicide, would you feel compelled to inform yout chief pilot or not ?
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 07:45
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Not at first. My first step would be to get them to seek appropriate counselling. If that didn’t work then yes I’d have to inform the company. What does this have to do with whether a Whats App group is social media or not?

The key point is that he reached out to someone, whether it’s friends or a professional doesn’t matter provided he gets the help he needs.

By the way, a hard copy photo can also be spread and end up in the public domain. It’s not actually “social media” that is the problem, sharing any compromising information, in any form, to anyone, removes control from you and is a risk. Social media just happens to be a convenient method for sharing and many people have little understanding of the privacy or otherwise of their social media accounts.
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 13:57
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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All it takes is one person to take a picture of a message you sent (by whatever means that was) and then send that picture to someone else. It’s very simple, before posting any message by whatever means, think about the implications for your company if the general public becoming aware of it. If you bring your company’s image into disrepute, damage or harm, then chances are you’ll get fired. You may even find your own career has come to an end.
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 16:22
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WhatsApp is not “social media” like Twitter or Facebook which may be received by many others, it is a one to one encrypted message. So it must have been the intended recipient who informed the airline, and in my opinion quite rightly. There is actually quite a large section of the population that have suicidal thoughts but not many have the means to do it readily available.
For a firearms licence in the U.K. your mental health is checked not just by your GP but your family as well, because you have the means commit suicide or kill others, I see no reason that the same standards should not apply to airline pilots, an employer that has any negative evidence simply must take action, it’s tough on the individual but there is life after airline pilot.
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