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Russia - Plane crash lands in field after bird strike

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Russia - Plane crash lands in field after bird strike

Old 24th Aug 2019, 01:53
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According to Wikipedia, there are quite a few variations even in English, depending on the airline:

  1. "Bend over! Stay down!"
  2. "Brace for impact! Prepare for crash-landing, prepare for crash-landing! Heads down! Stay down!"
  3. "Brace!" (repeated until the aircraft lands.)
  4. "Brace! Brace! Stay down!"
  5. "Brace, brace! Heads down, grab your ankles!"
  6. "Brace! Brace! Brace! Heads down! Stay down!"
  7. "Get your heads down, stay down!"
  8. "Heads down, grab ankles, stay down."
  9. "Heads down feet back! Heads down feet back!"
  10. "Heads down! Stay down!"
  11. "Bend down! Böj ner!" (Airlines in the Scandinavian countries repeat the Bend down-phrase in a Scandinavian language, alternating between the two languages.)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brace_position

If the Sully movie was accurate, and I remember correctly, they were using the "Brace! Brace! Brace! Heads down! Stay down!" variation.

Later edit: I did remember correctly. Still not sure about the movie's accuracy though:


Last edited by MemberBerry; 24th Aug 2019 at 02:11.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 17:22
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Originally Posted by MemberBerry View Post
According to Wikipedia, there are quite a few variations even in English, depending on the airline:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brace_position

If the Sully movie was accurate, and I remember correctly, they were using the "Brace! Brace! Brace! Heads down! Stay down!" variation.

Later edit: I did remember correctly. Still not sure about the movie's accuracy though: https://youtu.be/3tg0XjF2ldU?t=37s
Fruitless argument. How many understood his command? And how many followed? Compared to the Russian crew, Sully had all the time and altitude in the world. He was at 900 meters, while the Russians were barely airborne. Plus a much heavier plane. And a tiny insignificant detail - the people onboard didn't speak English.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 21:33
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Originally Posted by UltraFan View Post
Fruitless argument. How many understood his command? And how many followed? Compared to the Russian crew, Sully had all the time and altitude in the world. He was at 900 meters, while the Russians were barely airborne. Plus a much heavier plane. And a tiny insignificant detail - the people onboard didn't speak English.
I didn't accuse the Russian pilots of anything. They probably had more important stuff to focus on at the time, and based on the outcome they did an excellent job prioritizing what should be done within the short time available.

However I take issue with the claims that a "brace" command is useless. First of all, the command is not just for the passengers, but also for the cabin crew. And the cabin crew will start repeating the command to the passengers, and instructions about how to do it if the passengers were not previously briefed due to lack of time. They will keep repeating that until the plane comes to a stop. Sully gave the command 90 seconds before impact, and the cabin crew kept repeating the command and the instructions until impact, according to USA Today: 'Miracle on the Hudson' reveals passengers' stories - USATODAY.com

Also, nothing stops the airline from personalizing those commands with a version in the local language, like the Scandinavians, that keep alternating between English and their language when the cabin crew repeats the commands.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 23:04
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Originally Posted by MemberBerry View Post
I didn't accuse the Russian pilots of anything. They probably had more important stuff to focus on at the time, and based on the outcome they did an excellent job prioritizing what should be done within the short time available.

However I take issue with the claims that a "brace" command is useless. First of all, the command is not just for the passengers, but also for the cabin crew. And the cabin crew will start repeating the command to the passengers, and instructions about how to do it if the passengers were not previously briefed due to lack of time. They will keep repeating that until the plane comes to a stop. Sully gave the command 90 seconds before impact, and the cabin crew kept repeating the command and the instructions until impact, according to USA Today: 'Miracle on the Hudson' reveals passengers' stories - USATODAY.com

Also, nothing stops the airline from personalizing those commands with a version in the local language, like the Scandinavians, that keep alternating between English and their language when the cabin crew repeats the commands.
Just for clarity, I didn't think or imply that you accused the Russian crew of anything. This is more of a theorhetical opinion. I do hope, however, that someone would conduct an empirical study of this phenomenon, just like that did for evacuation panic back in the day... was it after the British Midlands runway fire?

It is an important issue and I for one would like to know how much of what I'm saying passengers actually hear or listen to. I'd also like to know how effective are those fashionable "safety" videos the airline now compete to issue. Personally, I think that instructing passengers on evacuating a sinking plane becomes a lot less effective if done by a generously bosommed and scantily clad Australian lady or a New Zealand dragon or a Man in Black. But that's a very different topic, indeed.
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Old 26th Aug 2019, 08:45
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The answer to this calling out "brace" issue or any other actions taken is really simple when you look at the chronology. I think it's about 90 seconds from the first pan call. I'm not sure how many of you have been in a similar situation. Time is completely distorted in situations like this and the mind is completely overloaded. On the one hand time seems to slow down and on the other things happen too quickly to respond in a considered way. The crew's minds would have been completely overloaded with the immediate control tasks of handling a fully loaded plane that has just left the runway and isn't going to fly and after realizing you can't turn looking for the safest place to attempt a landing and getting the plane to there. That is really all the mind has time for.
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Old 26th Aug 2019, 10:19
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Bud

The initiating event appeared to be diagnosed as a single engine failure at or shortly after take off. Thus gear up, aim for V2, establish safe climb.
Soon after, or coincident, but not immediately noticed, loss of power on second engine. Need to maintain safe flying speed, nose down, accelerate, perhaps brief consideration of glide speed before realisation of imminent landing, thence seek Vref for the configuration, manage the flight path, and position towards a suitable field.
Capt flying aiming for safest landing, P2 attention on attempting to restore some thrust, ………
Little time to consider any normal operation.

Crew acted as they saw the situation at that time, and within the time available between understanding and continually updating their understanding of a surprising, startling, situation, and the rapidly approaching ground - very much faster than normal.
Gear down, calls, etc, never came to mind in the order of events and within the time available - the crew could only operate within the limits of human performance.

They did, well done. We can ask no more.

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Old 26th Aug 2019, 11:49
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compared to other recent crashes, where airmanship certainly didn't help matters (but also didn't cause the crashes) it would be good to see what piloting experience the two Russian crew had. I'm thinking ex-military, gliders etc. The crew here, much like the BA 777 at LHR, and Sully, handled the 30 seconds or so they had, including the startle factor, amazing well. It was all muscle memory and instinctive airmanship.

If there is a review of pilot training, experience levels, sim session, HR factors, CRM in the wake of MCAS, then I hope the good outcome incidents also get examined to add to the evidence considered.

G
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Old 26th Aug 2019, 13:51
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Can't speak for all airlines, but many only actually use "Brace Brace!" For a PREPARED emergency landing (in which case the brace position and meaning of the command are demonstrated to the pax during cabin preparation phase) If mentioned in the safety video then Brace may be used.

For an unprepared emergency, varying with individual airline SOP, the "brace brace" can be omitted for the reasons mentioned above. The pax just aren't really familiar enough with it in a sudden emergency.

Some variants I can recall from over the years:

Heads down, stay down!
Bend down, hold your knees!
Bend down, protect your head!
Bend down, stay down!
Brace brace, heads down!

Etc
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Old 26th Aug 2019, 22:46
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please note that passengers were retrieving their luggage after forced landing in corn. Do you people believe they were going to obey "heads down, stay down" commands? LOL
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Old 26th Aug 2019, 23:31
  #230 (permalink)  

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No. Our job is to give a signal to those who may wish to follow the advice.

Similar to others, I believe a shouted command: Heads down, grab your ankles! / Heads down, stay down!, co-ordinated from all the CC stations, delivered in the local language, does have some effect on the PAX.

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Old 27th Aug 2019, 13:48
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
No. Our job is to give a signal to those who may wish to follow the advice.
After 28,000 hours flying, and over 40 years in accident investigation, I remain stunned by the disregard in general that the travelling public have for their own safety. The attention asked for by the regulator and the crew, both flight and cabin crew is for their safety, yet it is routinely more important to SMS some other party than to take 120 seconds to protect your own life. Having evacuated aircraft quite routinely in my life before the airlines, I still take the time to review emergency procedures prior to any flight, as a captain or as a passenger. I do take note of any others that are also taking some interest, as they are the ones that I will rely on to evacuate a smoke filled wreck. The others, that are SMS'ing, I assure you, I for one will not risk my life to defend yours, you have the right to disregard your life; you have no right to ask anyone else to show more care than you do for your skin.

From bitter experience, watching your own skin burn is not something you want to ever experience. Anyone standing between me and an exit with a suitcase is not going to be politely asked to do anything, such actions are a direct threat to the survival of everyone else irrespective of the mental dysfunction that may exist due to shock and lack of preparedness.

Certification calls for demonstrated evacuation in 90 seconds, using half of the available doors, and with incapacitation. It gets done, it is often not pretty, but it is passed. The problem is, as Airtours at Manchester showed, that the kinetic world we live in works by its own rules, and sometimes, that temporal luxury doesn't exist on the day. Once the tin is being wadded up, it is not a good time to start wondering where the exists may be.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 14:35
  #232 (permalink)  

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I do not see a disconnect between the two of us, fdr. Even against the odds that almost no-one is listening, we still must do our part. Saying no brace call needed - punters won't listen is ridiculous. That was the gist of mine.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 15:25
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A question from a SLF. Further up the thread it is stated that ATC twice warned the pilots of a bird hazard.
Bird strikes often have serious consequences, the shutdown of an engine, which I assume is high on the emergency priorities.
As pilots delay departure, or even return to the gate, for apparently much less serious issues than a potential engine shutdown should SOPs not instruct a delay if birds are in the flight path?
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 15:43
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Originally Posted by Leftexit View Post
A question from a SLF. Further up the thread it is stated that ATC twice warned the pilots of a bird hazard.
Bird strikes often have serious consequences, the shutdown of an engine, which I assume is high on the emergency priorities.
As pilots delay departure, or even return to the gate, for apparently much less serious issues than a potential engine shutdown should SOPs not instruct a delay if birds are in the flight path?
In my outfit there was no SOP for that. I think at most operators it rests with the Commander. At some airports e.g. EDDH, they have a "bird chase away" service if you ask for, which I did a few times. They use pyrotechnics and shotguns.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 15:48
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fdr agree. Only stern, shouting commands to leave aircraft helps in such case. But again, almost nobody is paying attention to safety briefings anyway....sometimes I have a feeling, that I'm the only one on the plane listening and looking where the exits are....
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 16:03
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Originally Posted by gearlever View Post
They use pyrotechnics and shotguns.
The use of shotguns seems uncommon. In Heathrow the policy is to fire cartridge guns.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 16:21
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Originally Posted by givemewings View Post
Can't speak for all airlines, but many only actually use "Brace Brace!" For a PREPARED emergency landing (in which case the brace position and meaning of the command are demonstrated to the pax during cabin preparation phase) If mentioned in the safety video then Brace may be used.

For an unprepared emergency, varying with individual airline SOP, the "brace brace" can be omitted for the reasons mentioned above. The pax just aren't really familiar enough with it in a sudden emergency.
Also can't speak for all airlines, especially those in Russia - but most don't include brace as part of the safety briefing these days.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 17:57
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Certification calls for demonstrated evacuation in 90 seconds, using half of the available doors, and with incapacitation.
and other rules like O2 masks that provide for passenger safety, The rule only provides a means for the passengers to remain unharmed, it's up to the passenger to use or not use the means provided. That seems to sell the most tickets. If we were to employ bull whips and batons to make the passengers respond that would defeat the mode of travel and force them onto less safe modes.of survival by chance alone.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 18:58
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Originally Posted by Euclideanplane View Post
The use of shotguns seems uncommon. In Heathrow the policy is to fire cartridge guns.
Indeed, thx for correct description.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 19:57
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Originally Posted by Euclideanplane View Post
The use of shotguns seems uncommon. In Heathrow the policy is to fire cartridge guns.
Depends on the threat of indigenous birds.

Young birds will easily scare with just the noise. However older more seasoned birds assess the threat and just move a little bit and wait around for the threat to leave before returning. After that a shotgun blast or other form of insurance would be used and followed by waving one or two killed birds over ones head to make sure the leaders got the message.. Following this back to pyrotechnics works fine again..

I first learned this trick many years ago when a team of well armed militia jumped out of the back of an old volks bus and took down quite a few gulls with shotguns. A year later I showed up with a different car full of guns, but all it took was for me to get out with a walki-talki antenna flashing and the birds took off before a gun could be fired. They are smart bastards and learn somewhat. I never could figure out if it was me, the walki-talki or the Volks-bus that they associated with.

Some bird control folks use follow-me trucks to run into flocks to disperse them Of course you first have to prove that the vehicle is deadly by waving a dead bird or two over your head so in the future just the vehicles presence is good enough. Gulls and sea birds seem to respond to the above.
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