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Old B747SP incident in Buenos Aries

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Old B747SP incident in Buenos Aries

Old 9th Jul 2019, 22:06
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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N743PA also not an SP. If my memory is correct (seldom is according to my wife) the SPs were N5..PA registered
Edit: 530 to 540 it would seem.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 00:57
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pistonprop View Post
N743PA also not an SP. If my memory is correct (seldom is according to my wife) the SPs were N5..PA registered
Edit: 530 to 540 it would seem.
Feb 79 EZE N532PA double engine birdstrike, one engine shutdown , I hope that's it because that took too much time chasing it.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 02:10
  #23 (permalink)  
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Lomapaseo -
Feb 79 EZE N532PA double engine birdstrike, one engine shutdown , I hope that's it because that took too much time chasing it.
I think you may have found the original short record. Thanks

Perhaps tdracer will be along shortly who may be able to confirm and put a little more flesh around it.

Good work,

IG

Last edited by Imagegear; 11th Jul 2019 at 17:25.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 11:37
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
I think you're being a bit harsh on the poor old beast...LHR-MIA was definitely "doable" on most typical days on a 747-100 without resorting to reclearance but there often wasn't much to spare in the way of weight. The -200 with RR engines would do the likes of LHR -SEA and, with, reclearance LHR-NRT non-stop.
.
Thanks for pointing out, I am more used to -200 freighter versions and corresponding weights. Anyway, back then 747 was seniority equivalent to 777 fleet today at US majors... and I am much more used to see 50 years old SFOs than 38 years old Captains
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Old 11th Jul 2019, 16:39
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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5 hours flying around on 2 engines or less sounds like a very long time. The SP can dump a lot faster than that.
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Old 11th Jul 2019, 18:38
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Originally Posted by V12 View Post
It's not your one but has a lot of similarities with the PeopleXpress B747-200 ex EGKK in the early 80's which had very similar issues at Vr, 2 engines on port side stalling and 3rd flaming, and got almost within treetop height of Russ Hill just west on Rwy26, whilst dumping everything it could. Unbelievable airmanship from the crew to save it. I saw it taxi out but didn't see the ensuing near disaster.
ATC lost sight of it due to her being so low if i recall
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Old 11th Jul 2019, 20:03
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Originally Posted by Twiglet1 View Post
ATC lost sight of it due to her being so low if i recall
You recall correctly, according to the account in post #8.
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Old 11th Jul 2019, 20:13
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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From the AAIB report of the 1988 People Express Gatwick incident linked above:



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Old 11th Jul 2019, 20:37
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Originally Posted by Imagegear View Post
Lomapaseo -

Perhaps tdracer will be along shortly who may be able to confirm and put a little more flesh around it.

IG
Sorry, no knowledge about that one. If we're talking 1979 time frame, I was right in the middle of the 767 development program, and the 747 was a completely separate group located in another building so not so much cross pollination going on.
Well after the 767 was certified and in service - sometime in late 1983 or early '84 - they combined the 767 and 747 Propulsion groups.

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Old 11th Jul 2019, 22:10
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CargoOne View Post
2) US Major 747 Captain just 38 years old
Regarding the Gatwick incident. Although Frank Lorenzo's Continental was regarded as a mainstream US carrier at the time, it had a certain reputation. They had just absorbed People Express, which was a post-deregulation startup, and the 747 N605PE was still in PE livery. The aircraft came from a rather mixed background. It was an early -200B model, new to Alitalia in 1972 (the AAIB report incorrectly states 1978), traded back to Boeing in 1980. It then hung around for nearly 4 years, mainly in the desert with various leases out for the Jeddah Hadj, until it was picked up by People Express in 1984 when they were in expansion mode and used on transatlantic low-cost flights. They ran notably short of cash and eventually were sold to Mr Lorenzo and merged in a year before the incident. Continental had not been 747 operator until then so the previous methods and recently recruited staffing carried on. You might say the aircraft had not been operated by a well-resourced carrier for some 8 years prior to the event.

The early -200Bs were not a significant advance on the original -100, that came later when the RR and GE engined versions came along, which P&W then caught up with, all still designated -200B so a bit confusing. Alitalia, along with several other operators, traded in the whole of their original 747 fleet, including this one, for the new and much more capable models in 1980-81.
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Old 11th Jul 2019, 22:46
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
Regarding the Gatwick incident. Although Frank Lorenzo's Continental was regarded as a mainstream US carrier at the time, it had a certain reputation. They had just absorbed People Express, which was a post-deregulation startup, and the 747 N605PE was still in PE livery.
I'm not sure if People's ops and Continental ops had been merged a year later but the 747 was operating under a Continental callsign as the AAIB report states.

Both People and Continental had some young senior captains at the time. People started up in 1981 and low time copilots in the early classes found themselves rapidly moving up as the airline expanded. Continental had an ALPA strike in 1983 and anybody willing to cross the picket line got a good number (and a bad place on the published 'list' of replacement pilots). A colleague of mine years ago got hired by Continental in his late 20's and made captain in two years.

Years later circa 2001 ALPA offered the Continental pilots with 'unfortunate dates of hire' amnesty and accepted them as dues paying members. Some now refer to themselves as 'former s**bs'.
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Old 12th Jul 2019, 02:54
  #32 (permalink)  
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Thanks to all for your input to my original question, it seems like although a rather scary event for the SLF at the time, it did not warrant any major review or investigation. Probably when less publicity was better than too much.

I have discussed your comments with my friend who seems to be more at ease with the reasons why very little information was available to the fare paying punters, and he will leave a little more settled than when he arrived.

Thanks again,

IG
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Old 12th Jul 2019, 06:13
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
Regarding the Gatwick incident. Although Frank Lorenzo's Continental was regarded as a mainstream US carrier at the time, it had a certain reputation. They had just absorbed People Express, which was a post-deregulation startup, and the 747 N605PE was still in PE livery. The aircraft came from a rather mixed background. It was an early -200B model, new to Alitalia in 1972 (the AAIB report incorrectly states 1978), traded back to Boeing in 1980. It then hung around for nearly 4 years, mainly in the desert with various leases out for the Jeddah Hadj, until it was picked up by People Express in 1984 when they were in expansion mode and used on transatlantic low-cost flights. They ran notably short of cash and eventually were sold to Mr Lorenzo and merged in a year before the incident. Continental had not been 747 operator until then so the previous methods and recently recruited staffing carried on. You might say the aircraft had not been operated by a well-resourced carrier for some 8 years prior to the event.

The early -200Bs were not a significant advance on the original -100, that came later when the RR and GE engined versions came along, which P&W then caught up with, all still designated -200B so a bit confusing. Alitalia, along with several other operators, traded in the whole of their original 747 fleet, including this one, for the new and much more capable models in 1980-81.


Not all true


Continental had operated 747’s in the past, four new -124 variants were delivered to the airline and operated between 1971 and 1974, then the price of fuel saw them replaced by the DC10


That was the queen of the skies ‘first life’ at Cal, then several used models rejoined the fleet with the PE merger in the ‘80’s
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 09:20
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Imagegear View Post
Lomapaseo -

I think you may have found the original short record. Thanks

Perhaps tdracer will be along shortly who may be able to confirm and put a little more flesh around it.

Good work,

IG
Pan Am puplished in the 70s "Crosscheck: flight safety dialogue": An incident at EZE with a 747SP is discribed in the April/May issue of 1979. As I`m not allowed to insert links please check Merrick Library Miami Pan Am flight safety dialogue, Vol. 6, No. 3, April 1979 page 28 for a short report. Maybe that will help?!

By the way, does anybody know if it was common practice in the industry at that point of time to publish inhouse such kind of a safety related product comparable to "Crosscheck"? For example at AA, TW, BA, LH, JP, QF... Thanks!
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 10:57
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Originally Posted by PanAm707 View Post
As I`m not allowed to insert links please check Merrick Library Miami Pan Am flight safety dialogue, Vol. 6, No. 3, April 1979 page 28 for a short report.
https://merrick.library.miami.edu/cd...nd/order/title

Thanks for the link to Crosscheck, quite interesting.
Also the other Pan Am manuals and publications are worth a look. A picture of an era in air transport.
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 14:11
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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https://merrick.library.miami.edu/cd...d/60984/rec/49 is a link to the specific issue.
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 15:34
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Originally Posted by Longtimer View Post
And here is the article about the EZE bird incident:



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Old 14th Jul 2019, 16:18
  #38 (permalink)  
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Well Gentlemen,

I never fail to be amazed that after so many years, PPRuNe membership has again come up trumps to put flesh on the bones of this incident.

Many people must have spent considerable time researching the challenge, to deliver a very useful outcome.I will be communicating the information to my friend who no doubt will take some satisfaction that the incident appears to have been well managed, and perhaps any latent fears he may have had, are put to rest.

My sincere thanks to everyone,

Imagegear
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