Virgin flight diverts due to cabin fire

[Twiglet1]

Originally Posted by Emma Royds

Spare a thought for those of us that must use a powerbank on board. How else can I keep my EFB charged on a 15 hour flight, if the aircraft doesn't have a power socket by my seat or it does but is unserviceable?

I always found it ironic that prior to EFB / Company Ipads crews had their own personal ones out on the Flight Deck. When the Companies introduce them - all of a sudden its a problem.

[lomapaseo]

Originally Posted by Twiglet1

I always found it ironic that prior to EFB / Company Ipads crews had their own personal ones out on the Flight Deck. When the Companies introduce them - all of a sudden its a problem.

Low bidder marketing?

[OldnGrounded]

Originally Posted by capngrog

I can understand airport fire fighters boarding the aircraft, prior to passenger evacuation, to assess what was apparently reported as an extinguished or smoldering fire, but I can't understand the passengers being held in the onboard smoky environment for an hour afterwards. Methinks someone has some explaining to do.

I can sense the lawyers circling as we speak, since these poor passengers were forced to breathe contaminated air. All kidding aside, I would not be surprised if some PAX suffered genuine respiratory distress.

Cheers,
Grog

There are more than half a dozen litihum ion battery chemistries in fairly common use. All of them, when burning, produce rather copious quantities of hydrogen fluoride and phosporyl fluoride gases in the "smoke." Those gases are significantly toxic.

I wouldn't be a tiny bit surprised if pax and/or cabin crew suffered respiratory effects from breathing that stuff. I am rather surprised that ARFF crews wouldn't be especially aware of the potential problem and be prepared to clear the smoke/evacuate the aircraft ASAP.

[GordonR_Cape]

OldnGrounded

There are more than half a dozen litihum ion battery chemistries in fairly common use. All of them, when burning, produce rather copious quantities of hydrogen fluoride and phosporyl fluoride gases in the "smoke." Those gases are significantly toxic.

I have no doubt that battery fires can emit toxic fumes, and that fluorine is particularly nasty. However I have not seen any evidence that fluorine is present in any commercially available batteries. Could you provide some references for that statement?

Edit: Sorry, my mistake when searching. I looked for fluorine, but the ingredient is fluorophosphate (LiPF6) .

[Peter H]

Originally Posted by GordonR_Cape

OldnGrounded
I have no doubt that battery fires can emit toxic fumes, and that fluorine is particularly nasty. However I have not seen any evidence that fluorine is present in any commercially available batteries. Could you provide some references for that statement?

I also found the claim inherently implausible.

However my first google hit surprised me.
Toxic fluoride gas emissions from lithium-ion battery fire
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-09784-z

So it would be nice to believe somebody is evaluating "realistic" fires in confined spaces such as aircraft.

Peter

PS
Note that, as stated, the original paper contained a typo.
- pdf with typo at https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-09784-z.pdf
- authors correction at https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-22957-8

[GordonR_Cape]

Peter H

I also found the claim inherently implausible.

However my first google hit surprised me.
Toxic fluoride gas emissions from lithium-ion battery fire
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-09784-z

So it would be nice to believe somebody is evaluating "realistic" fires in confined spaces such as aircraft.

Thanks for the very interesting link. I think the statement about 'rather copious quantities' of toxic gases struck me as a slight exaggeration for the relatively small batteries found in most portable devices. In any case many combustion products are nasty, and avoiding inhalation is always a good idea. The relative concentrations would be very hard to assess (even in a laboratory environment). As always, further investigation is justified.

[OldnGrounded]

Originally Posted by GordonR_Cape

Peter H
I think the statement about 'rather copious quantities' of toxic gases struck me as a slight exaggeration for the relatively small batteries found in most portable devices.

I should probably have provided citations. I guess I thought it was common knowledge.

I've seen a big room fill with smoke from a lithium-chemistry battery fire (from a laptop battery) in a very short period of time. I'm pretty sure that there would be significant concentrations in an airliner cabin fairly quickly, and that dissipation would be slow without active ventilation to outside air. It would definitely create an unpleasant experience and, potentially, harmful exposure.

[WingNut60]

Originally Posted by wtsmg

You trying to get off the diversion aircraft of your own accord is a huge pain in the arse, especially if you have a bag in the hold. It is not a bus service where you can just hop on and off. There have been flights delayed on the ground for many hours because a passenger insisted on getting off and it took hours for the ground crew to rock up with steps on a remote stand and the facilities necessary to get you to border control. One passenger kicking off about getting off when an aircraft has diverted can cause a massive further amount of disruption and delays for everyone else around them.

I am truly sorry for being so unreasonable, but I was actually referring to what happens when you have been diverted AND de-planed. And now you're waiting for someone to tell you what happens next.
I understand that in some cases it may be impractical for a passenger to disembark from an aircraft that is simply being held over for weather at destination to clear but I'm guessing that in a high proportion of diversion incidents, it is necessary to de-plane the passengers anyway.
Such as when one of the first class seats catches on fire.
It also applies, however, to when you have not yet been allowed to board the aircraft in the first case, for whatever reason.
When it's still half way between you and somewhere very distant, for instance.

In fact, it applies in many circumstances where the carrier decides that they'd like to run your life for you.
Me? I like to control my own options.

Mr Unreasonable

[bill fly]

Originally Posted by WingNut60

I am truly sorry for being so unreasonable, but I was actually referring to what happens when you have been diverted AND de-planed. And now you're waiting for someone to tell you what happens next.
I understand that in some cases it may be impractical for a passenger to disembark from an aircraft that is simply being held over for weather at destination to clear but I'm guessing that in a high proportion of diversion incidents, it is necessary to de-plane the passengers anyway.
Such as when one of the first class seats catches on fire.
It also applies, however, to when you have not yet been allowed to board the aircraft in the first case, for whatever reason.
When it's still half way between you and somewhere very distant, for instance.

In fact, it applies in many circumstances where the carrier decides that they'd like to run your life for you.
Me? I like to control my own options.

Mr Unreasonable

I learned early on, that military flying as captain is one thing and flying passengers is a new dimension.
In the airline,I started off as a copilot again and concentrated on flying the ship, with the odd glance left to see why the old man was so interested in cabin temperature, whether the pax were asleep and who had connections, whether we were in time, etc.
When I made the jump into the left seat I understood that these guys and girls who pay our salaries, many of whom fly longer hours and then have a meeting, are relying on me. It was my little branch of the firm.
If you can try to make some contact with the customers and be honest, even though you can’t always promise too much, that is a comfort to the folk strapped into your aluminium tube, who have no say in the matter. If they can see/hear that there is someone up front who cares what happens they will at least have no complaints.
As pax, I fly on many airlines and have experienced all sorts of PA. from faint crackly disinterested info to very good informative stuff - quite often on budget airlines by the way.
Instead of telling people like Wingnut that they are a pain in the ass, a little timely information on board will do a lot to prevent misunderstandings later on.
And - er - he might even fly with you again.