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US warns airliners flying over Gulf of 'misidentification'

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US warns airliners flying over Gulf of 'misidentification'

Old 21st May 2019, 03:20
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: San Diego
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Originally Posted by BEagle View Post
Some years ago I was flying from Saudi to Cyprus on an international flight plan in Saudi controlled airspace. I had 2 UK fighters in the formation, as per the flight plan.

As we approached the Red Sea on our flight planned route, some Spam Navy person called up on 243 "This is Red Crown on Guard - aircraft approaching Wejh identify yourself!".

WTF?? No-one was at war....

Having told the Spam who we were, we were told "You are clear to proceed". To which I replied "We are indeed proceeding in accordance with our clearance from the FIR controller. Thank you for your interest, but we do NOT need any clearance from Americans sailing their boats in the Red Sea to fly on international airways. Goodbye!".

US 'warning' airliners flying over the Gulf - what gives them that right....??

No doubt the usual trolls will accuse me of being anti-American. Not true - only some of them!
I have always been a lurker on here. Not an ATP, used to fly single engine Cessnas.

First of all, I wan't to apologize for my country for inconveniencing you. To ask you to ID yourself while being escorted by fighter aircraft in an area that, evidently, required you to have a fighter escort must have been a real boredom breaker for you. To their defense perhaps they may have either seen three aircraft on their radar or picked up transmissions from the fighters that alerted them to a potential threat. Thank God they communicated with you rather than doing the "American" thing of "shooting first and ask questions later." You know, we Americans are all cowboys by heart.

As to why we are there, many Americans ask the same question. We fought in two European wars in the last century, lost a lot of men and women in the process. Take a trip over to Normandy if you don't believe me. From what I understand they still like us "Yanks" in that region. Our integration into WWII kept most of Europe from having to speak German, despite the fact that we were actually attacked by Japan. Many Americans didn't want to involve ourselves in another European war, that is, until Pearl Harbor. My grandfather went to the theater we weren't trying to actively win, defending Europe was out priority and those who fought in the Pacific suffered from that policy. We helped a lot to win the battle in Europe and we stayed afterwards to ensure the peace. I'm not saying other countries didn't contribute, they did, but it wasn't "our war" at the time. We even spent billions after the war rebuilding Europe, so ya'll wouldn't do it again. We continued to stay so ya'll didn't have to learn Russian, with us picking up most of the tab. Now, few countries in NATO meet their, rather low defense spending expectations in assuming that cost of their own for the defense against the Russians. The Brits do, as well as those countries who fell on the wrong side of the iron curtain after the last "great war."

Now we ask our young people to go thousands of miles away to ensure Europe can have the oil they want so that you can fuel your plane to do your job. No oil, no Jet-A. No Jet-A, no job by the way. We've lost people in the process. Anyone remember the Stark? That captain lost his command and was court martialed for not defending his ship. The USN doesn't allow skippers to make mistakes. No other Navy has the ships to do what we do. You can thank the American taxpayer for that.

As an American, I don't want your thanks. But I sure as hell don't need the insults. We do the best we can do, more than any other country can say. To be honest, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Oh, and my grandfather has his carrier sunk beneath him defending Australia, some thousands of miles away in the Battle of the Coral Sea. He wasn't defending America at the time and I can say that my mother and grandmother never knew if he was alive or dead, they only got a heavily redacted letter months after it was sent.

I want to apologize to others on here for my first post being as it is. I stewed a bit about the post I am responding to and finally decided I had to respond.
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Old 21st May 2019, 03:27
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Water pilot View Post
I think some caution is in order, after all our glorious Navy managed to hit an oil tanker with one of their stealth high tech destroyers with the best radar technology in the world. To be fair, oil tankers are pretty small targets to detect on radar, unlike islands and continents and whatnot. The tanker was broadcasting its position on AIS and the destroyer wasn't (the navy and coast guard don't seem to believe that we need to know where they are, but man they get bent out of shape if they don't know where you are.)
And don't forget it was only a month or so after the USS McCain's cousin the USS Fitzgerald tangled with a container ship after failing to give way. Doesn't give you a great deal of confidence they can properly identify and react to threats displayed on their systems if they can't even avoid a threat they see out the bloody window...
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Old 21st May 2019, 03:32
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Denflnt View Post
Now we ask our young people to go thousands of miles away to ensure Europe can have the oil they want so that you can fuel your plane to do your job. No oil, no Jet-A. No Jet-A, no job by the way.
Wrong. It's currently the Europeans and other third party nations who want to buy oil from Iran and freely trade with Iran, and it's currently the US government trying to prevent that. Opening up Iran to trade and tourism is the best way for them to engage with the world, and it's your government who are interfering with that.

So much for the "home of the free market". Why can't you just let other nations trade with each other on their own terms in peace?
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Old 21st May 2019, 03:35
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Denflnt;

Well said.

Cheers,
Grog
capngrog is offline  
Old 21st May 2019, 04:00
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Age: 72
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Another Red Sea story.

An American naval vessel challenges a Russian vessel asks her name and voyage details.

Answer : "Russian war ship"

American again asks about voyage details,

Answer : "Russian warship."

----------------

Denflnt's argument is about a lost paradise. Kishore Mahbubani says it is "temps perdu", won't come back.

percentage of world goods trade 2016
..............export import
USA 14 18
Canada 3 3 Nafta 20 Ex 24 imp.
Mexico 3 3


EU 16 15

China 17 12
Japan 5 5 Asia 26 Ex 20 İmp.
Korea 4 3


Eurasia 42 35 ( Anyone China's railway belt and road ? )

Trump's attempt to cut down China's ascend seems to me same as UK's attempt to cut down Germany's economic power by pushing Germany into WW1.

I would like to add dictum of a American Major-General found very usefull.

1- Never fight unless you have to;
2- Never fight alone; and
3- Never fight for long

America stripping herself off from it's allies

Last edited by wetbehindear; 21st May 2019 at 09:42. Reason: adding to comment
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Old 21st May 2019, 04:19
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Denflnt View Post
As an American, I don't want your thanks. But I sure as hell don't need the insults. We do the best we can do, more than any other country can say. To be honest, you should be ashamed of yourself.
I think you need to look beyond WW2 and the immediate effects thereafter.

The question a lot of people seem to ask is how much "defence" is really needed as a direct result of perceived "offensive" moves by the US against other countries and to what end? And let's not forget the cost to other countries dragged into the conflict as a result of Bush's "Either with us or against us..." tripe.

A quick Google shows the so-called War on Terror has run up a tab approaching a trillion dollars, not counting several hundred million more in veterans medical costs, all essentially triggered by the 9/11 attacks. No one is saying those responsible for 9/11 didn't deserve to get their arses handed to them, but at what cost? The US loses 10x that number on the roads every year with barely a peep.

When people spend more on firearms (and defending the concept of an archaic phrase in a 200-year-old document about keeping said firearms) than they do on their own healthcare I think as a country you have sorely misplaced your priorities.
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Old 21st May 2019, 06:03
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Denflnt View Post
Now we ask our young people to go thousands of miles away to ensure Europe can have the oil they want so that you can fuel your plane to do your job.
​​​​​​If this is actually how you rationalize the US presence in the Middle East, I am looking forward to hear the truth about Vietnam.
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Old 21st May 2019, 06:07
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
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I think this thread has gone as far as it usefully can and I wish the moderators would park it.
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Old 21st May 2019, 06:10
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post
So if/when the Gulf is closed, and Pakistan is closed, then how...how...do I navigate to the far east?
Via Russia and China, after paying a fortune for Russian jet fuel after the middle Eastern oil flow comes to a halt. This US action in the gulf will significantly strengthen their strongest global rivals. I wonder who is using the US Government brain cell today 🤦*♂️
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Old 21st May 2019, 06:17
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Wrong. It's currently the Europeans and other third party nations who want to buy oil from Iran and freely trade with Iran, and it's currently the US government trying to prevent that. Opening up Iran to trade and tourism is the best way for them to engage with the world, and it's your government who are interfering with that.

So much for the "home of the free market". Why can't you just let other nations trade with each other on their own terms in peace?
Its all part of a massive global struggle amongst the top 1% for control or resources and money (whether they are from democratic or autocratic societies, the modus operandi is the same. Use connections and manipulate the legal and political system to their own financial advantage)

So in this case, US wants to secure their access to ME crude resources and keep enough product on the market to make their embargo against Russian products work, which it won't if there is a global shortage.

These people have no Nationality, conscience or soul. All they have is ruthless greed. And they are in control everywhere!!
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Old 21st May 2019, 06:21
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
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Originally Posted by Alex Whittingham View Post
I agree with BEagle, those who live in grey boats are notorious for firing at anything they deem a threat. One is reminded of the Falklands conflict where HMS Bristol reported firing sea darts at a 'high flying Lear Jet' which was actually a British AAR formation heading for the Falklands, all squawking correctly... all notified.. but still they fired.
Normally takes only one decent hit to send the ship and its entire compliment to the bottom. Naturally they are a bit nervous
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Old 21st May 2019, 06:26
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
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Originally Posted by Denflnt View Post
I have always been a lurker on here. Not an ATP, used to fly single engine Cessnas.

Now we ask our young people to go thousands of miles away to ensure Europe can have the oil they want
And this is out of the goodness of your hearts because you don't actually need the oil due to your ability to obtain what you need through fracking? It hasn't got anything to do with the fact that oil, anywhere in the world, is big business that America is heavily invested in?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti American at all but there is often an arrogance about your foreign policy and its implementation that tends to piss people off.
Ripton is offline  
Old 21st May 2019, 06:31
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
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Originally Posted by Denflnt View Post
I have always been a lurker on here. Not an ATP, used to fly single engine Cessnas.

First of all, I wan't to apologize for my country for inconveniencing you. To ask you to ID yourself while being escorted by fighter aircraft in an area that, evidently, required you to have a fighter escort must have been a real boredom breaker for you. To their defense perhaps they may have either seen three aircraft on their radar or picked up transmissions from the fighters that alerted them to a potential threat. Thank God they communicated with you rather than doing the "American" thing of "shooting first and ask questions later." You know, we Americans are all cowboys by heart.

As to why we are there, many Americans ask the same question. We fought in two European wars in the last century, lost a lot of men and women in the process. Take a trip over to Normandy if you don't believe me. From what I understand they still like us "Yanks" in that region. Our integration into WWII kept most of Europe from having to speak German, despite the fact that we were actually attacked by Japan. Many Americans didn't want to involve ourselves in another European war, that is, until Pearl Harbor. My grandfather went to the theater we weren't trying to actively win, defending Europe was out priority and those who fought in the Pacific suffered from that policy. We helped a lot to win the battle in Europe and we stayed afterwards to ensure the peace. I'm not saying other countries didn't contribute, they did, but it wasn't "our war" at the time. We even spent billions after the war rebuilding Europe, so ya'll wouldn't do it again. We continued to stay so ya'll didn't have to learn Russian, with us picking up most of the tab. Now, few countries in NATO meet their, rather low defense spending expectations in assuming that cost of their own for the defense against the Russians. The Brits do, as well as those countries who fell on the wrong side of the iron curtain after the last "great war."

Now we ask our young people to go thousands of miles away to ensure Europe can have the oil they want so that you can fuel your plane to do your job. No oil, no Jet-A. No Jet-A, no job by the way. We've lost people in the process. Anyone remember the Stark? That captain lost his command and was court martialed for not defending his ship. The USN doesn't allow skippers to make mistakes. No other Navy has the ships to do what we do. You can thank the American taxpayer for that.

As an American, I don't want your thanks. But I sure as hell don't need the insults. We do the best we can do, more than any other country can say. To be honest, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Oh, and my grandfather has his carrier sunk beneath him defending Australia, some thousands of miles away in the Battle of the Coral Sea. He wasn't defending America at the time and I can say that my mother and grandmother never knew if he was alive or dead, they only got a heavily redacted letter months after it was sent.

I want to apologize to others on here for my first post being as it is. I stewed a bit about the post I am responding to and finally decided I had to respond.
Its all about perspective, so here is ours

1. You sat back and allowed UK to do the heavy lifting until 1942.
2. If Hitler hadn't declared war on the US in support of Japan you probably would have continued to do so.
3. You sold us billions of dollars of equipment and profited while we were fighting and slowly bankrupting. We made the last loan payments sometime in the 1980s.
4. UK and commonwealth forces were on parity with the US in numbers and casualties in the European campaign despite having much smaller populations
5. Roosevelts aim was to take over from the British as leader of the "free world". At the end of WW2 while all other fighting parties, Allies and Axis were broke and ruined, the US was intact and in profit, using their strength at that time to seize control of UN, IMF, reserve trading currency and other such international bodies and conventions , which are now used, particularly the financial ones for mafia like control of the global financial system in Americas favour
6. The US has never fought a single war that has not been in its financial interests.

Its all about perspective, depends where you are looking from
rmac2 is offline  
Old 21st May 2019, 07:12
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
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In past years he loved to pass the CVN vs lighthouse story as gospel.
That's totally incorrect, Westy! I have never said that it was true.

BEagle is online now  
Old 21st May 2019, 07:18
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
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Originally Posted by Denflnt View Post
I want to apologize to others on here for my first post being as it is. I stewed a bit about the post I am responding to and finally decided I had to respond.
Denfint,

while your narrative is possibly true from the US citizen/soldier point of view, there is a bigger picture why exactly the US got involved: technology and power.

Germany at the time had really good war technology. The clearest example is V1/V2 rocket, which "just so happens" was the basis of the Saturn program after the war. Imagine a different reality where that technology and knowhow falls into russian hands, and you get a pretty good motivation to get involved in the war.

It was not just the rockets, Germany also had the first jet powered fighter (Me 262), as well as.

Second very important item for the US was Russian influence in Europe. Germans actually helped deflecting Russians from occupying (larger part of) Europe. The clearest example is Finland, which fought Russians with German support (yet, they were not considered Axis). Were it not for Germany, Finland would share the fate of the Baltic states.

Strategically it was very important for the US to prevent Russia access to warm water harbours (hence cut them away from the Mediteranian Sea) so that they would not become too big of a superpower.

In essence, US nuclear program (funded on Germany imigrated knowhow) + German rocket technology (Saturn) + Iron Courtain in the Eastern Europe (and not further to the West) helped the US maintain the balance in the cold war era.

History would have been different also for the US had they not get involved in the "European" WW2.

PS: despite my username, I'm not German.
derjodel is offline  
Old 21st May 2019, 09:37
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
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Denflnt wrote:
To ask you to ID yourself while being escorted by fighter aircraft in an area that, evidently, required you to have a fighter escort must have been a real boredom breaker for you. To their defense perhaps they may have either seen three aircraft on their radar or picked up transmissions from the fighters that alerted them to a potential threat.
Being escorted by fighter aircraft? Hardly - it was a routine AAR trail from Saudi Arabia to Cyprus which was flight planned and being flown in Saudi controlled airspace...

A polite request for identification would have been a different matter - it was the brusque "Identify yourself" and "Clear to proceed" which I found unreasonably arrogant.
BEagle is online now  
Old 21st May 2019, 11:07
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
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Originally Posted by BEagle View Post
Denflnt wrote:

Being escorted by fighter aircraft? Hardly - it was a routine AAR trail from Saudi Arabia to Cyprus which was flight planned and being flown in Saudi controlled airspace...

A polite request for identification would have been a different matter - it was the brusque "Identify yourself" and "Clear to proceed" which I found unreasonably arrogant.
such a tragedy, an ATC person not flowering up his language to your taste, possibly they were using standard phraseology? hope you have found your safe place, and your comfort blanket...
ironbutt57 is offline  
Old 21st May 2019, 11:23
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Denflnt

You rely should study some history.

Cpt B
BluSdUp is offline  
Old 21st May 2019, 11:24
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
Nice job on the Internet Tough Guy act, Beags. If a ship with no supporting aircraft has a high altitude aircraft to identify, and the visibility is not CAVU (as is commonn) and the date time group is back in the dark ages when you flew, you know good and damned well how a VID can't be done.
Your foaming at the mouth is pretty sad. It smacks of "I am a has been, so I'll rant and rave."
I suspect the problem might not be the demand for identification, but the granting of "permission" to procede, as though the US Navy ship had authority to deny permission.

If you try to rule the world, you make a lot of enemies.

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Old 21st May 2019, 13:02
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Parrot, you are probably right about what got Beag's back up ... but sopmeone fying about with a chip in their shoulder will doubtless take offense at anything.
Originally Posted by FlightlessParrot View Post
If you try to rule the world, you make a lot of enemies.
I wonder if the British Empire ever learned that - seems that Beags forgot it, and is still at insulting allies even though Britannia no longer rules the waves. Misplaced arrogance.
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