Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

US warns airliners flying over Gulf of 'misidentification'

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

US warns airliners flying over Gulf of 'misidentification'

Old 18th May 2019, 15:49
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Doha
Posts: 34
US warns airliners flying over Gulf of 'misidentification'

This topic seems to have been picked up in some of the quality media. The following is an extract from Al Jazeera:-

"US diplomats warned commercial airliners flying over the wider Gulf of the risk of being "misidentified" amid heightened tensions between the United States and Iran.
The warning relayed by US diplomatic posts from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) underlined the risks the current tensions pose to a region crucial to global air travel."

As a SLF who regularly flies the length of the gulf this is a worrying development.
HowardB is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 16:25
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Here
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by HowardB View Post
As a SLF who regularly flies the length of the gulf this is a worrying development.
Indeed it would be but Iran has said there won't be a war. Nobody in the region is "big" enough.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ilian-aircraft
Ripton is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 17:02
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 11,589
Apparently this time around, it's not a reference to misidentification by the US.
DaveReidUK is online now  
Old 18th May 2019, 17:24
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Here
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Apparently this time around, it's not a reference to misidentification by the US.
Well it wouldn't do to be shooting down the aircraft of your best clients and allies in the region.
Ripton is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 18:21
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: On the Ground
Posts: 155
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Apparently this time around, it's not a reference to misidentification by the US.
But the not-so-subtle threat is there, anyway. https://www.britannica.com/event/Iran-Air-flight-655
Takwis is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 22:41
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: US
Age: 62
Posts: 419
Commercial aircraft flights should not operate in combat or potential combat zones. Flights should remain well outside the maximum range of missle threats in those zones. Since airlines don’t want their operations disrupted its almost inevitable we will see another tragedy. Most people would not walk in front of loaded weapons with operators on edge yet we will willing fly under the same conditions.
Sailvi767 is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 22:50
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Posts: 3,788
well HOPEFULLY, the crew monitor 121.5, where any "unidentified" aircraft will be challenged by the Navy, heard it on a daily basis, usually, it was one of their own helicopters..but it does add to the daily routine having to listen out for these calls...
ironbutt57 is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 23:55
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Under the radar, over the rainbow
Posts: 707
Originally Posted by Takwis View Post
But the not-so-subtle threat is there, anyway. https://www.britannica.com/event/Iran-Air-flight-655
Indeed. It's reasonable to suspect this "warning" is motivated by something other than sincere and innocent concern for the international flying public.
OldnGrounded is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 02:53
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,679
Iran Air 655
Rated De is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 03:04
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Posts: 3,788
Originally Posted by Sailvi767 View Post
Commercial aircraft flights should not operate in combat or potential combat zones. Flights should remain well outside the maximum range of missle threats in those zones. Since airlines don’t want their operations disrupted its almost inevitable we will see another tragedy. Most people would not walk in front of loaded weapons with operators on edge yet we will willing fly under the same conditions.
all fine and dandy, im sure if a war breaks out over the gulf, it will be closed, in the meantime, if you have FR 24 or similar air traffic app, have a gander at what goes on over the Gulf traffic wise...bear in mind this place is ALWAYS a "potential combat zone"
ironbutt57 is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 05:36
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: malta
Posts: 156
Originally Posted by ironbutt57 View Post
all fine and dandy, im sure if a war breaks out over the gulf, it will be closed, in the meantime, if you have FR 24 or similar air traffic app, have a gander at what goes on over the Gulf traffic wise...bear in mind this place is ALWAYS a "potential combat zone"
Besides this, let's not forget Africa where you can find conflict in most countries (in varying decree).

Nowadays if you want to go somewhere, it's almost impossible to avoid some sort of tensionzone.
the_stranger is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 06:07
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cab of a Freight Train
Age: 37
Posts: 496
Originally Posted by ironbutt57 View Post
well HOPEFULLY, the crew monitor 121.5, where any "unidentified" aircraft will be challenged by the Navy, heard it on a daily basis, usually, it was one of their own helicopters..but it does add to the daily routine having to listen out for these calls...
Wasn't one of the things to come out of the Iran Air shootdown that the US continually called the crew several times but used groundspeed in their "unknown aircraft" call, so they felt it was not directed at them, even if they were monitoring Guard?
KRviator is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 06:26
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 666
So if/when the Gulf is closed, and Pakistan is closed, then how...how...do I navigate to the far east?
fox niner is online now  
Old 19th May 2019, 07:18
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,679
If the powers that be can apparently recognise everyone with facial algorithms, de-crypt encrypted messages, then let us pray that they can identify an airliner.
Rated De is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 08:04
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Runcorn,Cheshire,England
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by KRviator View Post
Wasn't one of the things to come out of the Iran Air shootdown that the US continually called the crew several times but used groundspeed in their "unknown aircraft" call, so they felt it was not directed at them, even if they were monitoring Guard?
the main reason was the Americans were broadcasting on 243 (military guard HF)and not 121.5(civilian). Consequently, the Iranian civilian airliner wasn’t monitoring 253 and didn’t hear the calls.
3Greens is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 08:07
  #16 (permalink)  

"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: England
Age: 73
Posts: 3,173
253(military HF)
I think you mean 243 (military UHF)
Herod is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 08:56
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 11,589
Originally Posted by 3Greens View Post
The main reason was the Americans were broadcasting on 243 (military guard HF)and not 121.5(civilian). Consequently, the Iranian civilian airliner wasn’t monitoring 253 and didn’t hear the calls.
Well yes and no. Like most such events, it was a combination of circumstances.

The USS Vincennes made 10 attempts to contact IR655.

Seven of those attempts were on UHF (243.0 MHz), which the Iran Air couldn't receive as it didn't have UHF, and three were on VHF (121.5 MHz), which IR655 did receive but disregarded because it cited an unknown aircraft flying with a 50 kt speed difference (GS vs TAS) and failed to quote IR655's Mode A squawk, which would have unambiguously identified it.
DaveReidUK is online now  
Old 19th May 2019, 09:03
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 806
Originally Posted by ironbutt57 View Post
well HOPEFULLY, the crew monitor 121.5, where any "unidentified" aircraft will be challenged by the Navy, heard it on a daily basis, usually, it was one of their own helicopters..but it does add to the daily routine having to listen out for these calls...
Whilst also noting what else they said:

It also said aircraft could experience interference with navigation instruments and communications jamming “with little to no warning”.

No nav, no comms, lots of weaponry on hair trigger, what could possibly go wrong...

I suspect the idea is that now they've issued the warning if anything gets shot down it won't be their fault.
infrequentflyer789 is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 09:25
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Europe
Age: 41
Posts: 590
Let's remind ourselves, that historically only 2 nations have shot down commercial airliners in peace time. One of them has now issued a warning, it seems quite clear where that potential danger would come from. And it's not Iran.
SMT Member is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 09:31
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London UK
Posts: 6,408
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Seven of those attempts were on UHF (243.0 MHz), which the Iran Air couldn't receive as it didn't have UHF, and three were on VHF (121.5 MHz), which IR655 did receive but disregarded because it cited an unknown aircraft flying with a 50 kt speed difference (GS vs TAS) and failed to quote IR655's Mode A squawk, which would have unambiguously identified it.
Or, to paraphrase, they didn't know what they were doing. "Attempts" that are impossible to receive don't really count, do they ?

The crew also stated they had no way of knowing it was a civilian airliner, despite it being in a civilian ait corridor, Amber 59. Now in every US warship at the time the quartermaster carried the current Official Airline Guide (OAG), principally to arrange tickets for crew members. The flights from Bandar Abbas to Dubal were straightforwardly listed in there. So the information of the flight time and route of the aircraft was all there on board their ship. Just nobody had thought to look.

I hope nowadays someone on board has the web address for Flight Radar 24.
WHBM is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.