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737 max returning to service ?

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737 max returning to service ?

Old 1st May 2019, 10:07
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I知 not too sure how SLF think they are qualified to comment whether they have 5 hours or 5 zillion hours they have no idea about the mess this incident highlights in the competency of the regulator and company. Nor the erosion of confidence in the pilots who have to operate these aircraft. It has become an increasingly common occurrence that pilots are being trained to a minimum standard with only a rudimentary level of technical knowledge for too long. As I approach my retirement I only hope this marks a watershed and the reversal of these trends. I think recent posts highlighting where Boeing were able to get away with a single source of information on a critical system without a warning to the pilots if this system was faulty, unless the company accountants ticked an option box, is simply criminal.
The current senior team at both Boeing and FAA must be dismissed and replaced before any thought of releasing this aircraft to service can be considered.
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Old 1st May 2019, 10:33
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Originally Posted by yanrair
I asked yesterday a large group about what caused the demise of the last jet liner to be grounded forever- Concorde.
Readers- please close your eyes and think what you believe and pause for ten seconds覧覧覧覧覧

Or we could just read the investigation report.

they all said more or less the same thing 電ebris on runway left by previous aircraft which damaged plane etc etc.
Obviously they had.
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Old 1st May 2019, 10:42
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Originally Posted by yanrair


Hi there again Cows!
in another thread I pointed out by way of agreement with you that the 737 is not a sixties design but actually it痴 a 707 fifties design with two engines missing and will eventually when max retires have flown for over 100 years! Now, is this unreasonable? To have a trim system from 1950 still the same a century later? My view, if it痴 not broke don稚 fix it. MCAS is in need of three design changes. Fix those and off we go
y

But is broke. The basic aircraft (which has been a world leader) is outgrowing it's clothes. What are they going to do when son-of-LEAP pitches up, pump a bit more air in the tyres, give MCAS 2.7 units and call it a Max+? Time to buy a few reams of A1 paper and employ some more draftsmen, methinks.
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Old 1st May 2019, 10:55
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BA/BY It was a runaway trim not a stab. A trim cutout switch was installed on the centre bit right by the captain's hand. Almost every sim ride included a trim runaway thereafter. I lived through it!
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Old 1st May 2019, 10:58
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I asked yesterday a large group about what caused the demise of the last jet liner to be grounded forever- Concorde.
Concorde was not "grounded forever". It got modified and was good to go again. And flew with paying passengers again.
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Old 1st May 2019, 11:15
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Originally Posted by yanrair

Dear member

My best guess is that except the FAA no one will re-certify the Max before the final investigations of the two accidents are out

Don稚 hold your breath for the final report which will no doubt absolve the pilots. I asked yesterday a large group about what caused the demise of the last jet liner to be grounded forever- Concorde.
Readers- please close your eyes and think what you believe and pause for ten seconds覧覧覧覧覧





they all said more or less the same thing 電ebris on runway left by previous aircraft which damaged plane etc etc.
oh dear!
We are in similar territory here.
Y

Loss of market after 9/11
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Old 1st May 2019, 12:49
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Originally Posted by Kerosene Kraut
Concorde was not "grounded forever". It got modified and was good to go again. And flew with paying passengers again.
But Concorde is grounded forever, it will not fly again.

That final permanent grounding was not caused by the crash. That, I believe, was the original poster's point, which seems to have gone over several people's heads, probably in flames...
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Old 1st May 2019, 14:07
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"Grounded" typically means grounded by authorities. Concorde got phased out by it's operators for economical reasons and because Airbus wanted to end the product support.
Concorde had been grounded for some time after the Paris accident. Then it got modified and was cleared to fly again. The grounding ended.
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Old 1st May 2019, 14:19
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Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY

Your opinion !
Although now retired and only SLF but I have over 10 ,000 hours command time on 73s 75s and 76 s.

I have never flown a Max but have looked at a LOT of documentation re MCAS.

I still cant understand how the Max was certified for operation with just ONE component able to drive the most powerful control surface.

Further , despite current Boeing. philosophy, I would want to know and understand EVERYTHING. about a system, particularly one which could kill me, exactly how it works, how it can fail. and how to deal with it and have seen and practiced operation and failures in the simulator, BEFORE becoming type rated.

Many years ago I was posted to an RAF squadron as a replacement pilot for one killed in the Valiant crash believed to have been caused by a runaway stab. The aircraft were not modified BUT we all went into the sim to practice the recovery procedure as it was found that full elevator could just overcome the stab. Deflection. Boeing please note.

After that experience I absolutely beleive that if MCAS is retained its authority should not be greater than can be overcome be elevator input.

Until the. MAX crashes I had the very highest respect for Boeing aircraft. With the Max MCAS they, to quote a senior retired NTSB. inspector , dropped the ball, bigtime.

I am sure the Max will be returned to service in due course as a very safe aircraft. But in its single A of A Sensor coupled to its MCAS system it should never have been certified.
When I did my 737 conversion at Boeing in Seattle back in 1980 our instructors were adamant that all their aircraft were designed to be flown with ease by any and all of the worlds airline pilots. The Max seems to have beaten four with tragic results.



That is the point though. If you are fighting MCAS with elevator you have already stopped flying the aircraft as MCAS stops when you trim - the button by your left thumb. Of course if you -_don't_ trim then you have already ceded aircraft control especially if you let the speed increase where the stab will always have more authority. But trimming to unload the control column forces should be instinctive, for those pilots for whom that is still the case they will fly the aircraft home.
I suspect that the FMEA showed that a rare AOA failure could cause MCAS to operate despite not being at high AOA but the crew were expected to react by trimming the aircraft. After all who would expect a professional crew to let the aircraft repeatedly trim down and not use the control column trim to put it back in trim? If MCAS operated with uncommanded nose down trim repeatedly after being recovered back to trim as in the Lion Air flights - then the flight crew would be expected to switch the stab trim off as the penultimate Lion Air flight did do. Nobody at Boeing thought that pilots would be saying "no the stab trim cut out switches are only for _runaway_ trim and that is _repeated_ trim". So now the single point of failure - which definitely should not have been there - even with FMEA showing that crews were expected to stop the problem- has been removed the repeated operation in a failure mode has been removed. What has not been removed is that concern about what NNCs are being considered as extremely specific by crews due to the tick box simulator training approach. There are going to be other complex failures (as in rodent eating a cable) that cannot be described in NNCs and where =Fly the aircraft= is really important regardless of horns shakers cavalry charges etc etc, and yet we have crews that will not even trim.
As 737 Driver has said this is looking more like a training issue
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Old 1st May 2019, 14:34
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Small aircraft pilot for 35+ years, land and sea. To all those on this board who say when confronted with unreliable airspeed indications, "fly the aircraft" or 'Pitch and power".... doesn't the fact that the automatic trim functions triggered by the MCAS software require Herculean back preesure on the yoke change the equation for you even a little? And the fact that at certain airspeeds, it is difficult or nearly impossible to manually trim the aircraft to reduce or remove the need for massive back pressure?
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Old 1st May 2019, 14:54
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Originally Posted by Lake1952
Small aircraft pilot for 35+ years, land and sea. To all those on this board who say when confronted with unreliable airspeed indications, "fly the aircraft" or 'Pitch and power".... doesn't the fact that the automatic trim functions triggered by the MCAS software require Herculean back preesure on the yoke change the equation for you even a little? And the fact that at certain airspeeds, it is difficult or nearly impossible to manually trim the aircraft to reduce or remove the need for massive back pressure?
You’ve probably heard the old saw about the kid who killed his parents and then requested mercy before the court because he was an orphan. The Ethiopian situation is kind of like that.

Because of a lack of application of basic airmanship skills, the aircraft entered a flight regime where basic flying skills were no longer sufficient to save the ship. Some people keep looking at the condition of the aircraft at the five minute mark and declare it was no longer flyable without seriously considering what happened in the previous 4 minutes and 59 seconds.
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Old 1st May 2019, 15:09
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MCAS put in 2.5 units of nose down and the pilots responded by putting .5 (half a unit) of nose up trim. This is a lack of hand flying ability. Competent airmanship would have you trim till the back stick pressure is trimmed out. Clearly they didn't do this. They could have. In fact, to use an extreme and silly point, they could have flown with MCAS operating continually. MCAS trims down and they trim it right back out. Of course at some point you would think you would decide to use the checklist and kill power to the trim. It would be reasonable to use the electric trim to trim to stable stick pressure, THEN stab trim cutout. Not the reverse. Also, you can't wait till you are going the speed of heat and full nose down trim. Won't work at that point.

The guy above nailed it. Looking at the last moments of the flight and ignoring the basic lack of flying skillset that preceded it is to miss a huge lesson. Flying skills, the basic hand flying stuff, needs to make a comeback. That plane was flyable, right up until they flight crew made one too many mistakes. They made a bunch of errors, but eventually it was one too many.

That isn't racism that is just observing and recognizing mistakes. Pretty much the point of an AI.
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Old 1st May 2019, 15:17
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Concorde had a design flaw which had previously been brought to the attention of the regulators by the FAA, the fuel tanks were vulnerable to damage from debris thrown up from the runway. The disaster proved that and the type was grounded until a satisfactory modification was approved, the tanks got armour plating. Commercial considerations led to the withdraw of the aircraft from service, the fuel consumption is horrendous.
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Old 1st May 2019, 15:40
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To be precise about Concorde's withdrawal from service:

Concorde used tremendous amounts of costly fuel even at the time of the Paris crash. On the other hand, Concorde was a flagship product (think marketing) for British Airways and Air France. Analysis showed the marketing benefit outweighed the losses per flight, so the operators and manufacturer fixed the problem and put Concorde back into the air. In other words, "commercial considerations" kept Concorde flying.

Several years later, though, a different problem cropped up. The airframes were reaching the end of their certified number of cycles. In order to keep flying, the manufacturer would have had to re-certify for a longer life. That would have been extremely costly, and the costs of any required remediation were unknown. With less than a dozen airframes in service, the decision was made to end the project. This time around, "commercial considerations" let the Concorde expire at the end of its design life.

YYZjim
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Old 1st May 2019, 15:54
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Reading through these posts has been painful for this MAX qualified pilot but since this is a public board, and many non-fliers are making comments and contributions that defy reason and logic, that are coming from an emotional basis, and one not based upon any experience or knowledge, I should not be surprised.
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Old 1st May 2019, 15:55
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RetiredBA/BY:

When I did my 737 conversion at Boeing in Seattle back in 1980 our instructors were adamant that all their aircraft were designed to be flown with ease by any and all of the worlds airline pilots. The Max seems to have beaten four with tragic results.
How do today's airline pilots compare with those of 1980? If there has been a downward trend in competence in non-normal situations, has Boeing tailored its design philosophy to suit? How reasonable is it to expect Boeing to be able to make such an adjustment?
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Old 1st May 2019, 18:01
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Originally Posted by John Marsh
RetiredBA/BY:



How do today's airline pilots compare with those of 1980? If there has been a downward trend in competence in non-normal situations, has Boeing tailored its design philosophy to suit? How reasonable is it to expect Boeing to be able to make such an adjustment?
I dont know the answer to that, I have been retired for 20 years. That said I am convinced that handling skills have been going downhill for many years, precipitated by the introduction of aircraft with FMCS. Children of the magenta line etc. !

Perhaps I am fortunate having cut my teeth on the Canberra, no autopilot, no autothrottle, and a real handful on one engine, and I regularly hand flew my Boeing up and down to/ from around 20,000 feet and actually really enjoyed doing it.

But we actually flew the bloody things !

And as an aside, BA operated Concorde because it was profitable. Lord King and Colin Marshall challenged Brian Walpole, the then Flight manager, to make it so or it would be grounded, and with Jock Lowe’s acumen they did so. I was one of the main charterers for many years. That may not have been the case for AF.

Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 1st May 2019 at 18:18.
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Old 1st May 2019, 18:57
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If MCAS is creating more troubles than solving and if it is of no use for stall protection (Boeing's claim) why not just take out the entire MCAS? If authorities require heavier stick feel close to the stall for certification why not modify the feel system instead of violently interfering with the steering and using the trim to brute force the nose down? That dramatic amount of brute force applied by MCAS looks like more than just needed to create just some better "feel" for the pilots.
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Old 1st May 2019, 19:14
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Originally Posted by John Marsh
How do today's airline pilots compare with those of 1980? If there has been a downward trend in competence in non-normal situations, has Boeing tailored its design philosophy to suit? How reasonable is it to expect Boeing to be able to make such an adjustment?
One possible cycle:

Less training/competence ==> more automation ==> less training ==> more automation ==> no pilot

If pilots can't fly a plane, why have them?
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Old 1st May 2019, 19:14
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Originally Posted by Kerosene Kraut
If MCAS is creating more troubles than solving and if it is of no use for stall protection (Boeing's claim) why not just take out the entire MCAS? If authorities require heavier stick feel close to the stall for certification why not modify the feel system instead of violently interfering with the steering and using the trim to brute force the nose down? That dramatic amount of brute force applied by MCAS looks like more than just needed to create just some better "feel" for the pilots.
AFAIK this had been discussed elsewhere. My short answer is that the development, testing and certification delays associated with changing the elevator feel system, would be prohibitive in terms of costs and postponed deliveries. IMO at this late stage, MCAS is the only game in town. There might be a parallel process to do it properly, and retro-fit existing models in a few years time?
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