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737 max returning to service ?

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737 max returning to service ?

Old 27th Apr 2019, 20:21
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clandestino View Post
I don't think that any additional MAX-related pilot training will be required or that passengers should be scared of flying on MAXes... ever.
Tell that to other companies who did not listen to consumer concerns.
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 22:27
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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What ever happened to the pilot action of pushing the power up when up the aircraft is slowing toward its stall speed? Or even better, of increasing power when your are 5-10 knots below your target speed so you never get to its stall speed.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 00:23
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by warbirdfinder View Post
What ever happened to the pilot action of pushing the power up when up the aircraft is slowing toward its stall speed? Or even better, of increasing power when your are 5-10 knots below your target speed so you never get to its stall speed.
You don't have to be going slow to stall, you just need to be at too high of an angle of attack.

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Old 28th Apr 2019, 05:46
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by warbirdfinder View Post
What ever happened to the pilot action of pushing the power up when up the aircraft is slowing toward its stall speed? Or even better, of increasing power when your are 5-10 knots below your target speed so you never get to its stall speed.

So, what is your stall speed? It might be hard to say if you have unreliable airspeed indications due to an AOA failure.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 05:54
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hans brinker View Post
So, what is your stall speed? It might be hard to say if you have unreliable airspeed indications due to an AOA failure.
AoA failure would not be my first guess on an unreliable airspeed - why is it yours?

I would first expect a pitot issue and then move from there.

As a + 30 year LAME
#1 - is the pitot cover on or melted parts of one evident.
#2 - is there a pitot blockage or leakage.
#3 - is there a static blockage.
#4 is not a AoA failure.

Last edited by Bend alot; 28th Apr 2019 at 06:26.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 07:05
  #26 (permalink)  
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 17:56
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smythe
sim time is the issue, tough enough to get as it is.
Does that not just equate to $$$$ ?
No, just logistics. It is very tough to get sim time, there simply arent that many.

You can do plenty without full motion on, maybe a scaled down, non-motion sim would help, and be a bit better than an iPad.

Last edited by Smythe; 28th Apr 2019 at 18:09.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 18:55
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sixchannel View Post
I would appreciate knowing why you think that?
Browsing through the preliminary reports of PK-LPQ and ET-AVJ demises and some pre-crashes marketing hype, I got a distinct feeling that Boeing engineers managed to produce aeronautical equivalent of IT's killer app, thanks to big state finally restricting its meddling into aeronautical design process through so called "certification". MAX is so good that Southwest CEO called it "the best narrowbody airplane in the world". He should know, he is a CEO.

Originally Posted by sixchannel View Post
Happily my airlines of choice do not use them.
I'm not particularly happy that my airline of choice has bet a pretty chunk of its future on the Ceaddlewash's best narrowbody aeroplane that failed to deliver promised performance in some minor technical areas, like number of crewmembers and passengers killed per megaflighthour. I have diligently completed conversion course though, as if I'm ever going to fly her. Don't believe the sensationalist media that want you to believe it is restricted to half an hour iPad session.

I have decisively proven it works on Huawei Android pad too.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 19:17
  #29 (permalink)  
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Evidently some US Pilot groups are not satisfied with the level of training proposed by Boeing.

U.S. pilots demand better training if Boeing wants to rebuild trust in 737 MAX

American Airlines pilots have warned that Boeing Co.'s draft training proposals for the troubled 737 MAX do not go far enough to address their concerns, according to written comments submitted to the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration and seen by Reuters.
Thomson Reuters · Posted: Apr 28, 2019 1:58 PM ET | Last Updated: an hour ago
American Airlines pilots have warned that Boeing Co's draft training proposals for the troubled 737 MAX do not go far enough to address their concerns, according to written comments submitted to the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration and seen by Reuters. (Matt Mills/Reuters)
The comments were made by the Allied Pilots Association (APA), which represents pilots at American Airlines Group Inc., the world's largest airline and one of the biggest 737 MAX operators in the United States.

Their support is important because Boeing has said pilots' confidence in the 737 MAX will play a critical role in convincing the public that the aircraft is safe to fly again.

Boeing's fast-selling 737 MAX was grounded worldwide in March following a fatal Ethiopian Airlines crash that killed all 157 on board, just five months after a similar crash on a Lion Air flight that killed all 189 passengers and crew.

Now it is readying for regulatory approval a final software update and training package to address an anti-stall system known as MCAS that played a role in both nose-down crashes.

A draft report by an FAA-appointed board of pilots, engineers and other experts concluded that pilots only need additional computer-based training to understand MCAS, rather than simulator time. The public has until April 30 to make comments.
Protesters are expected outside Boeing's annual meeting in Chicago on Monday, where shareholders will also question the company over its safety record.

APA is arguing that mere computer explanation "will not provide a level of confidence for pilots to feel not only comfortable flying the aircraft but also relaying that confidence to the travelling public."

It said the MAX computer training, which originally involved a one-hour iPad course, should include videos of simulator sessions showing how MCAS works along with demonstrations of other cockpit emergencies such as runaway stabilizer, a loss of control that occurred on both doomed flights.
Required simulator training could delay the MAX's return to service because it takes time to schedule hundreds or thousands of pilots on simulators. Hourly rates for simulators range between $500-$1,000 US, excluding travel expenses.

American Airlines Chief Executive Doug Parker said on Friday that even if other countries delay the ungrounding of the MAX, once the FAA approves it, American will start flying its 24 aircraft.

Union pilots for Southwest Airlines Co., the world's largest operator of the MAX with 34 jets and dozens more on order, have said they were satisfied with the FAA draft report, but would decide on additional training once they see Boeing's final proposals.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 21:04
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
AoA failure would not be my first guess on an unreliable airspeed - why is it yours?

I would first expect a pitot issue and then move from there.

As a + 30 year LAME
#1 - is the pitot cover on or melted parts of one evident.
#2 - is there a pitot blockage or leakage.
#3 - is there a static blockage.
#4 is not a AoA failure.

I think you misunderstood me. Somebody was saying:"just fly slightly faster than the stall speed and everything will be okay". I wanted him to answer where he would get a reliable source for airspeed from, with an AOA failure (and I think most of us agree the two crashed MAXes had AOA issues), at no point did I suggest AOA failure is more or less likely than a pitot issue. On the aircraft I fly I have seen min clean as low as 180 and as high as 245 depending on weight, pretty hard to guess the stall speed accurately enough.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 21:31
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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PR

Regardless of the fix/how/when/retraining pathways, there has been significant damage done to the brand of the aeroplane.

When the aircraft is returned to service, I’m interested to see how public perceive the aircraft and what that does to the bottom line for its operators.

I can imagine that one more such crash would leave the aircraft irrecoverable in terms of sales. Also would leave a major blow to Boeing’s brand for years to come.

Time will tell.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 22:49
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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I heard that SWA is seriously considering the A-220, because of Boeing's failure with the 737.

Boeing Whistleblowers Report More 737 MAX 8 Problems to FAA
https://interestingengineering.com/b...roblems-to-faa
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 22:56
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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I'd like to buy some shares in Boeing, but I'm not sure just how bad this is going to get for them. Then there's the problems with USAF tankers and Dreamliners.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/b...-problems.html

https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...r-over-debris/

Last edited by skol; 28th Apr 2019 at 23:16.
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Old 29th Apr 2019, 03:28
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Well this has become the "New Coke" episode for Boeing. Remember New Coke from April of 1985. Had to be replaced with "Coke Classic". Disaster!
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Old 29th Apr 2019, 05:30
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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That was very interesting about the 'New Coke'.

Boeing's got a similar problem and it won't go away anytime soon. There'll be passenger resistance, but many passengers have no idea what aircraft they're flying on anyway. There's also only 2 major commercial aircraft manufacturers in the world so many airlines have no choice but to
be going Boeing given the backlog of aircraft on order. They'll want to make sure they get this 100% right, so it could be a protracted grounding, very, very expensive, and Boeing have suspended guidance, so i might just wait a while longer before I make my purchase.
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Old 29th Apr 2019, 05:56
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by skol View Post
I'd like to buy some shares in Boeing, but I'm not sure just how bad this is going to get for them. Then there's the problems with USAF tankers and Dreamliners.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/b...-problems.html

https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...r-over-debris/

Not just Aviation. Their space division also had recent early failure, not to kick em while they are down, but they really need to get it together, across the board.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/intelsat-says-satellite-made-boeing-fails-210810314--finance.html
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Old 29th Apr 2019, 08:26
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Smythe View Post
sim time is the issue, tough enough to get as it is.
I agree, even if not needed from a pilot point of view. But from the public view it is essential.

How soon can the sims be upgraded and re-certified?

Cheers
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Old 29th Apr 2019, 09:03
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jack11111 View Post
Well this has become the "New Coke" episode for Boeing. Remember New Coke from April of 1985. Had to be replaced with "Coke Classic". Disaster!
Later one "Intel" Chip in 1994.

Affected probably 1 in 5 million as it was in complex calculations, didn't matter as everybody wanted it changed, Intel said "No" until consumer and manufacturers started walking away from them. Almost cost them the company. Cost $1/2 billion to put right.
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Old 29th Apr 2019, 09:48
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Almost 400 deliveries of the Max but less than 5 operating sims in the world. Is that the worst aircraft to simulator ratio ever?
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Old 29th Apr 2019, 09:56
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 6 DOF View Post
I agree, even if not needed from a pilot point of view. But from the public view it is essential.

How soon can the sims be upgraded and re-certified?

Cheers
I don't think we, the public, care too much about sim time. How will we know? The Max is tainted and only Boeing can remedy that, how remains to be seen.
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