Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

BAW492 diversion at Gibraltar

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

BAW492 diversion at Gibraltar

Old 26th Feb 2019, 11:29
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 9,627
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem View Post
Yes, trust FR24 and not the videos that show a goaround from nowhere near the ground.
Quite so.

ADS-B transmitted altitude data isn't corrected for QNH, so unless you can be sure that a correction has been applied at some later stage you can't rely on the altitude you're looking at being AGL/AMSL.
DaveReidUK is online now  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 11:35
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: any town as retired.
Posts: 2,151
It certainly was 'lively' in Gib that day. Sitting near the threshold myself the winds were (mostly) down the runway but, as we know, the Rock is a unique environment with frequent windshear - hence Capts landings only. There were also several waterspouts reported in the area around the time of the approach. I've loved operating in Gib and the decision to immediately divert (for whatever reason) was a smart one!
Gulfstreamaviator is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 11:49
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Co. Down
Age: 77
Posts: 478
Thanks Chillpill for that explanation. Being very much pre-FBW and even then 10 yrs before, I couldn't get the hang of the A320 sim except in what I think is direct rule ie fly it like any aircraft I had previously flown. Not being a 12-year-old any more I couldn't make head nor tail of the pre-flight programming but you have shown me where I was going wrong. I'm going to treat myself to another hour or two, then I'll be ready to take over when the experts fall ill on our next trip to the Canaries
Geriaviator is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 11:53
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: NV USA
Posts: 171
How dare you!

Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem View Post


Yes, trust FR24 and not the videos that show a goaround from nowhere near the ground.
How dare you question FR24 over eyeballs and video!!!
cappt is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 12:10
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Gran Bretaña
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by chillpill View Post
There are 2 'types' of Airbus pilots.

1. Those taught directly by Airbus.

2: Those taught 'in-house' by the Airline.

An old and wise first gen Airbus A320 Captain once told me you can always tell the difference between 1 and 2 as above by watching A320's on approach on a gusty cross-wind day...

The Airbus taught pilots ... the A320 rolls slowly (max 33 degrees AOB), stops, regains wings level slowly but does not overshoot wings level.

The 'in-house' pilots... the A320 rolls slowly (max 33 degrees AOB), stops, then rolls the other way invariably over-shooting wings level... then back the other way. A PIO.

Te difference is the Airbus taught pilots are taught to truly understand the theory AND practice of the 'zero roll rate/1G flight' regime in 'Normal Law'... and that the aircraft will strive to maintain that without any pilot input. By contrast, many 'in-house' pilots, (no blame, just a systemic fact), often with a 'classic' Boeing background, chase the roll deviation with a 'traditional opposite' control input, even though the aircraft is already doing that. But they are in fact 'lagging' that aircraft input... and by the time they sense the side-stick against the roll 'stop', the aircraft is already going the other way... so they chase that... to a developing PIO.

The solution... simply 'let go' of the side stick and let the aircraft flight control software system look after things. It's hard to do (learn (un-learn) pre FBW software), but when you do, flying the A320 series is a hell of a lot simpler... and less likely to result in vids like this.

I am however not saying there was no a FC degrade going on here as a result of a systems failure, but this certainly looks like classic PIO to me.
Quite a big assumption that it was being manually flown at the time.
MaydayMaydayMayday is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 13:38
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 2,036
As about 3 of us are trying to say - this is a fault, supposedly fixed.

Some links from "Just the fax maam":

Honk Kong Dragon Airlines, 1994, mad roll oscillations:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=140547
http://ebook.lib.hku.hk/HKG/B35840213.pdf (full report)

Air Canada, 2002:
http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapport...6/a02o0406.pdf
HundredPercentPlease is online now  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 13:46
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 2,036
Originally Posted by MaydayMaydayMayday View Post


Quite a big assumption that it was being manually flown at the time.
That's quite a point. If the W/S G/A was flown with the autopilot, and the aircraft was behaving like that, then the crew are in the unenviable position of being in a FBW aircraft that really is not doing what it should do. From the armchair, it appears that returning it to a known working configuration (ie not config full) would have caused some relief in there - and personally I may have elected to land flap 3 at the alternate....
HundredPercentPlease is online now  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 14:28
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Moscow Hotel
Posts: 8
[QUOTE=HundredPercentPlease;10400989- and personally I may have elected to land flap 3 at the alternate....[/QUOTE]

Looking at the weather, I may elected to land at GIB with Conf 3 in the first place!
PorridgeStirrer is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 14:31
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 9,627
Originally Posted by CAP A330 View Post
OK, I take it back. This aircraft needs to be grounded ASAP, G-EUUY. Already back in LHR I see..
Far from being grounded, the aircraft in question was airborne again by 08:25 this morning operating a LHR-LYS-LHR rotation.

DaveReidUK is online now  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 16:32
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: WILTSHIRE
Posts: 66
Not sure F3 is an option at GIB in a A320..... Lndg perf limit
red9 is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 16:44
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 9,627
Originally Posted by Magplug View Post
Making an approach to 09 at GIB with a strong wind out of the east is very demanding. With the draconian airspace restrictions imposed by the Spanish (purely for political reasons) aircraft are forced to fly northbound on a right base for 09 where they are directly downwind of the rock at a height where they are in in extremely turbulent air. Gibraltar requires great respect from the pilot, particularly with regard to wind limitations. In this case the surface wind was quite within limits but the turbulence generated by the stronger 1000' wind on base leg can be so strong that it feels like your teeth are going to fall out just as you fly abeam the dockyard. Passengers.... Welcome to the world of the over-paid and under-worked pilot. On the days where I earn my money - you really would not like to be sat behind me!

As you can see from the graphic, the turbulence that lies just west of the rock in strong easterly winds could be completely avoided by the Spanish permitting straight-in approaches over Algeciras on days like this.

Politics standing in the way of Flight Safety... Who would have thought it!

Plot of yesterday's actual track:



Needless to say, the ADS-B data is too coarse to be able to see any short-period oscillations. One thing it does show is that, understandably, keeping clear of Spanish airspace wasn't a high priority under the circumstances.

I deliberately haven't shown a vertical profile because, as referred to in a previous post, the data does contain a "0 ft" point (not on the runway, as was suggested, but at about 1.6 nm short of the threshold). That, of course, doesn't mean it's bad data, simply that it's showing pressure altitude (i.e. FL0) relative to 1013.2 hPa and not height AMSL, which makes plotting in 3D somewhat academic (though it does indicate approximately where the GA was initiated).
DaveReidUK is online now  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 17:51
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 351
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Plot of yesterday's actual track:



Needless to say, the ADS-B data is too coarse to be able to see any short-period oscillations. One thing it does show is that, understandably, keeping clear of Spanish airspace wasn't a high priority under the circumstances.
All military traffic flown into GIB have to remain outside spanish airspace. But the arrival procedures for civilian aircraft are designed/ built/ flown into a small portion of Spanish airspace, so that flight track is perfectly typical for civilian arrivals.
Dct_Mopas is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 18:02
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 9,627
Originally Posted by Dct_Mopas View Post
All military traffic flown into GIB have to remain outside spanish airspace. But the arrival procedures for civilian aircraft are designed/ built/ flown into a small portion of Spanish airspace, so that flight track is perfectly typical for civilian arrivals.
Thanks for that - in fact I've only just noticed the date (1967!) on that airspace graphic. Glad to hear that the Spanish are a bit more flexible, at least for civil aircraft.
DaveReidUK is online now  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 18:04
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: NY
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by treadigraph View Post
Longer clip here, seem to be quite a few cycles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78ZDaQ0UYZg
All I can say is that anyone with an underwear cleaning business in Malaga made a killing that day. When I first saw the ground video I thought that has to be PIO. At least to an extent. No way it should rocking and rolling that long from whatever wind condition it was they encountered. My feeling is that the reaction was a bigger problem than the cause.
mryan75 is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 19:13
  #75 (permalink)  
Longtimelurker
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: killington Vt
Posts: 363
Originally Posted by mryan75 View Post

All I can say is that anyone with an underwear cleaning business in Malaga made a killing that day. When I first saw the ground video I thought that has to be PIO. At least to an extent. No way it should rocking and rolling that long from whatever wind condition it was they encountered. My feeling is that the reaction was a bigger problem than the cause.
Having done lots of sim and IOE work in the 320 I would be very surprised if that isn’t pilot induced . Auto pilot on different story although I never was impressed with the 320 autopilot in strong winds .
filejw is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 21:39
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: All-At-Sea
Posts: 6
NOT PIO

Why are posters persisting in blaming the flight crew when evidence of a known and documented FCC fault, which causes PRECISELY this roll oscillation, has been presented above?

Have we reached the stage where Airbus FBW logic is beyond fault or criticism?
Just the fax maam is online now  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 23:22
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 361
From the videos that has been linked above it appears that the airplane was well above the ground when the roll oscillations documented occurred. The speed altitude trace shows decent to a very low altitude prior to executing the go-around. I am left with a couple of questions that others may be able to help with:
1. Were there roll oscillations during the final approach that led to the go-around? Did any passengers (particularly those who submitted interior videos) comment on the altitude when worrisome roll oscillations occurred?
2. Did the go-around involve touching down or was it executed without wheel to runway contact? Were there any objectionable pitch or roll motions associated with the flight just prior to initiation of the go-around or during the go-around itself?
3. Has the airline made any statement about this event with regard to either the equipment or the crew?
As is often the case, more questions than answers!
FCeng84 is online now  
Old 27th Feb 2019, 00:35
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: North by Northwest
Posts: 277
Originally Posted by FCeng84 View Post
From the videos that has been linked above it appears that the airplane was well above the ground when the roll oscillations documented occurred. The speed altitude trace shows decent to a very low altitude prior to executing the go-around. I am left with a couple of questions that others may be able to help with:
1. Were there roll oscillations during the final approach that led to the go-around? Did any passengers (particularly those who submitted interior videos) comment on the altitude when worrisome roll oscillations occurred?
2. Did the go-around involve touching down or was it executed without wheel to runway contact? Were there any objectionable pitch or roll motions associated with the flight just prior to initiation of the go-around or during the go-around itself?
0:04 seconds of the longer pax video (#24) male verbally guessing go-around before the oscillations started which makes me wonder if they already were experiencing something and he'd experienced a go-around before at same destination. Also, sounded like engines spooled up shortly after the 0:04 mark with a bank to starboard - didn't look like they had turned final before initiating and didn't look like they were close to touchdown in video post #1. At the tail end of post #1 video, maybe someone with sharper eyes can place the location where the video from the ground was taken.

b1lanc is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2019, 02:34
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 427
I'm also convinced it's PIO..

Go on https://www.airbus-win.com/ TRAINING-- Training to Basic Flying Skills. It's a video and at 29m15s, You will see a good example of real case of PIO over stick free aircraft after an upset from a vortex.

And at 36m15s, The Airbus test pilot strongly recommends to fly raw rata during line operations. Does BA comply with those recommendations by Airbus?

Last edited by pineteam; 27th Feb 2019 at 03:32. Reason: Typo
pineteam is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2019, 02:46
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Windyton
Posts: 2,619
Originally Posted by HundredPercentPlease View Post
As about 3 of us are trying to say - this is a fault, supposedly fixed.

Some links from "Just the fax maam":

Honk Kong Dragon Airlines, 1994, mad roll oscillations:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=140547
http://ebook.lib.hku.hk/HKG/B35840213.pdf (full report)

Air Canada, 2002:
http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapport...6/a02o0406.pdf
Neither of those seem relevant. The first one was associated with flaps locked at full and the lever selected to 3 in accordance with an ECAM, the second involved ice accretion.
AerocatS2A is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.