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Atlas Air 767 down/Texas

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Atlas Air 767 down/Texas

Old 16th Mar 2019, 23:15
  #621 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TRey View Post

The only thing I cant resolve is why/how did MAX thrust get commanded.

Cheers
My speculation, and it is only speculation, is that turbulence was encountered while a seat swap was in progress and one of those involved in the swap put out a hand to steady themselves and pushed the throttles full forward. Speculation is based on lots of time in flight test where many seats swaps were observed. Who wouldn't have wanted to give the newbie a bit of stick time?

Of course that speculation is meaningless if all crew were found strapped in their appropriate seats.

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Old 16th Mar 2019, 23:26
  #622 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EXDAC View Post
My speculation, and it is only speculation, is that turbulence was encountered while a seat swap was in progress and one of those involved in the swap put out a hand to steady themselves and pushed the throttles full forward. Speculation is based on lots of time in flight test where many seats swaps were observed. Who wouldn't have wanted to give the newbie a bit of stick time?
Of course that speculation is meaningless if all crew were found strapped in their appropriate seats.
While I am not privy to Atlas' SOP, I'd be surprised if they did not dictate that such a crew swap would need to be done at altitude (FL whatever) before descent into the terminal area. We'll see.
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 23:27
  #623 (permalink)  
 
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I am sure nobody would let a non-qualified pilot take commands. Definitely not at an established operator like Atlas. That's more than speculation. No offence.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 00:26
  #624 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by V1rhot8 View Post



What if they had a instrument problem that caused the aircraft to present bad attitude information (nose high). Next the crew adds max thrust and pushes forward on the control column to lower AOA /the perceived unusual attitude towards “level.” Then they are trying to determine whether the attitude information is wrong or if they had a pitot static issue. Once the break out of the clouds they recognise the severity of the situation and start to pull up, but given the high load factor from doing nearly 400KIAS they can only recover to -20 degrees pitch.
Very possible, and hopefully we will know more soon.
However, I would think that 3 sets of eyes would see the VSI pegged, Airspeed pegged, and the clacker sounding, all as warnings that something was not right.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 00:34
  #625 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by V1rhot8 View Post



What if they had a instrument problem that caused the aircraft to present bad attitude information (nose high). Next the crew adds max thrust and pushes forward on the control column to lower AOA /the perceived unusual attitude towards “level.” Then they are trying to determine whether the attitude information is wrong or if they had a pitot static issue. Once the break out of the clouds they recognise the severity of the situation and start to pull up, but given the high load factor from doing nearly 400KIAS they can only recover to -20 degrees pitch.
It is possible and this is what happened to West Atlantic's CRJ that crashed in Norway (or was it Sweden) not long ago, however, the nose high recovery procedure does not call for maximum thrust. You would reduce thrust and increase bank to increase nose down pitch rate. From the video online it seems the aircraft was not in any banked attitude.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 00:35
  #626 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EXDAC View Post
My speculation, and it is only speculation, is that turbulence was encountered while a seat swap was in progress and one of those involved in the swap put out a hand to steady themselves and pushed the throttles full forward. Speculation is based on lots of time in flight test where many seats swaps were observed. Who wouldn't have wanted to give the newbie a bit of stick time?
Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
While I am not privy to Atlas' SOP, I'd be surprised if they did not dictate that such a crew swap would need to be done at altitude (FL whatever) before descent into the terminal area. We'll see.
A seat swap with a jumpseat rider from another carrier?

Even on a freighter that doesn't seem likely to me. At least not in 2019.

It was the case at some places that unauthorized seat swaps 'to give the engineer a leg' were common on ferry and freight flights as recently as the 1980's. I've also heard of giving a fed a leg without authorization.

For example, the seat swap with the flight engineer had happened in the crash of United 2885, a DC-8 freighter that went down at DTW in 1983:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...es_Flight_2885

In 1988 a Pan Am captain was fired for allegedly letting a flight attendant fly a 747 full of pax but he filed a union grievance and got his job back:

On September 25, 1988, Gay was employed by Pan Am as the captain of Pan Am Flight No. 81, a Boeing 747 passenger aircraft enroute from New York to Los Angeles. During the course of the flight, First Officer Dennis Brooks temporarily vacated the co-pilot's seat and Flight Attendant Naomi Kaneda sat in his place. It was reported that Ms. Kaneda put her hands on the control yoke, but it never was clearly established that she actually manipulated the controls of the aircraft. The testimony of certain witnesses before the National Transportation Safety Board did indicate that Ms. Kaneda actually hand-flew the aircraft and that the aircraft deviated from its assigned altitude at that time.

An investigation of the incident was conducted by the Regional Chief Pilot of Pan Am, and he concluded that Gay was guilty of misconduct in the incident. The Chief Pilot found that Gay had allowed an unqualified person to manipulate the controls of the aircraft, in violation of Pan Am's Flight Operations Manual and Federal Aviation Regulations. As a consequence of these findings, Gay was discharged by Pan Am on December 31, 1988. Gay then filed a grievance over his discharge as provided in the collective bargaining agreement entered into between Pan Am and its pilots. The grievance proceeded to arbitration before the System Board of Adjustment, the body designated to conduct arbitrations under the collective bargaining agreement. The Board found that Gay was deprived of a full and fair investigation of the charges lodged against him and ordered him reinstated with full back pay and seniority rights. The Board made no finding on whether Gay allowed a flight attendant to fly the aircraft.
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal.../60/83/565776/

I haven't heard of these seat swap shenanigans for years though. Sometimes a current and qualified (and sober) deadheading pilot from the same company might offer to take a turn in the seat for a while as a courtesy to the operating crew but even that was explicitly forbidden in the manual about a decade ago where I worked.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 01:08
  #627 (permalink)  
 
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The seat swap scenario doesn't sound likely. These three were all rated and experienced pilots, the lure of sitting in a seat just for the fun of it is not there. The Atlas pilots wouldn't even think of offering it up to a guy who just wants to get home/work. I've done a lot of jumpseating the last twenty years and it's never been brought up.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 01:21
  #628 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding the “why” on max thrust suddenly: if maneuvering around weather in Heading Select, it’s certainly possible to crank the Speed Select knob instead of the heading bug when intending to make a turn, commanding a higher airspeed inadvertently and no change in heading. The sudden thrust could surprise any crew, especially when tired and distracted by weather or ATC commands.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 02:52
  #629 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EXDAC View Post
My speculation, and it is only speculation, is that turbulence was encountered while a seat swap was in progress and one of those involved in the swap put out a hand to steady themselves and pushed the throttles full forward. Speculation is based on lots of time in flight test where many seats swaps were observed. Who wouldn't have wanted to give the newbie a bit of stick time?

Of course that speculation is meaningless if all crew were found strapped in their appropriate seats.
How about the jump seat passenger simply standing up, perhaps to lean over the pilot's shoulder to get a better look at something? Or coming back from the loo? Or even seated in the jump seat, but perhaps leaning forward with belts off. And they hit turbulence, and he's pitched forward into the controls. Maybe sticks a hand out instinctively, trying to catch himself. Between the startle factor, passenger in the way, trying to regain his feet....

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Old 17th Mar 2019, 03:57
  #630 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by jugofpropwash View Post
How about the jump seat passenger simply standing up, perhaps to lean over the pilot's shoulder to get a better look at something? Or coming back from the loo? Or even seated in the jump seat, but perhaps leaning forward with belts off. And they hit turbulence, and he's pitched forward into the controls. Maybe sticks a hand out instinctively, trying to catch himself. Between the startle factor, passenger in the way, trying to regain his feet....
Not likely, they were below 10,000’, everybody seated, strapped in and shoulder harness on.
seat swap even more unlikely, Captain could lose his job and his license for doing that.
The NTSB probably know what went wrong, but keeping quiet..
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 05:36
  #631 (permalink)  
 
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Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
Regarding the “why” on max thrust suddenly: if maneuvering around weather in Heading Select, it’s certainly possible to crank the Speed Select knob instead of the heading bug when intending to make a turn, commanding a higher airspeed inadvertently and no change in heading. The sudden thrust could surprise any crew, especially when tired and distracted by weather or ATC commands.

But the message never showed up?

One might notice an increase in engine noise, lack of turn, and max 399 in the speed window?
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 05:38
  #632 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by extreme P View Post
Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
Any idea where this was just posted?
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 05:59
  #633 (permalink)  
 
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Red face

Something along the lines of, upthread: [post 629]

Originally Posted by MSVirginia View Post
Regarding the “why” on max thrust suddenly: if maneuvering around weather in Heading Select, it’s certainly possible to crank the Speed Select knob instead of the heading bug when intending to make a turn, commanding a higher airspeed inadvertently and no change in heading. The sudden thrust could surprise any crew, especially when tired and distracted by weather or ATC commands.

Last edited by jaysky; 17th Mar 2019 at 06:02. Reason: clarification
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 06:12
  #634 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jaysky View Post
Something along the lines of, upthread: [post 629]
Thanks

Originally Posted by extreme P View Post
But the message never showed up?
Sometimes you have to refresh the page to get the latest post, I've had the same issue.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 06:27
  #635 (permalink)  
 
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V1rhot8 says: "What if they had a instrument problem that caused the aircraft to present bad attitude information (nose high). Next the crew adds max thrust and pushes forward on the control column to lower AOA /the perceived unusual attitude towards “level.” Then they are trying to determine whether the attitude information is wrong or if they had a pitot static issue."

In my years of flying the SAI has always been my friend, prominently in view just a few centimeters from the main instrument panel, easily incorporated in my scan. The idea of ever chasing a faulty attitude indicator into a 49 degrees dive is impractical reality.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 07:36
  #636 (permalink)  
 
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Is the pitot or “probe” heat on a 767 auto or manually selected? Does faulty probe heat trigger a caution? Just wondering if a blocked pitot on descent yielded an alarmingly low airspeed indication prompting an overreaction with thrust and attitude?
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 10:47
  #637 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GlueBall View Post
V1rhot8 says: "What if they had a instrument problem that caused the aircraft to present bad attitude information (nose high). Next the crew adds max thrust and pushes forward on the control column to lower AOA /the perceived unusual attitude towards “level.” Then they are trying to determine whether the attitude information is wrong or if they had a pitot static issue."

In my years of flying the SAI has always been my friend, prominently in view just a few centimeters from the main instrument panel, easily incorporated in my scan. The idea of ever chasing a faulty attitude indicator into a 49 degrees dive is impractical reality.
Well I am just trying to formulate a theory of why a pilot might put in nose down control column input. The fact that the NTSB stated it initially combined with things I have been hearing leads me to believe that they did indeed push it over... but why? Also if the FO was PF, the SAI is not a few cm away.

The second component is the FBI has stepped down from the investigation. This in my mind rules out suicide, because if they were going that direction you'd need to investigate why someone might feel that way. You'd want an agency experienced with interviewing people.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 11:09
  #638 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MSVirginia View Post
Regarding the “why” on max thrust suddenly: if maneuvering around weather in Heading Select, it’s certainly possible to crank the Speed Select knob instead of the heading bug when intending to make a turn, commanding a higher airspeed inadvertently and no change in heading. The sudden thrust could surprise any crew, especially when tired and distracted by weather or ATC commands.
Its certainly possible and I have had that happen. The change in aircraft pitch is barely noticeable while handflying at 230 knots. Certainly nothing that would cause issues.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 12:33
  #639 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EXDAC View Post
My speculation, and it is only speculation, is that turbulence was encountered while a seat swap was in progress and one of those involved in the swap put out a hand to steady themselves and pushed the throttles full forward. Speculation is based on lots of time in flight test where many seats swaps were observed. Who wouldn't have wanted to give the newbie a bit of stick time?

Of course that speculation is meaningless if all crew were found strapped in their appropriate seats.
Well, never say Never, but it would have been unusual, to say the least, in the terminal area.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 13:12
  #640 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EXDAC View Post
My speculation, and it is only speculation, is that turbulence was encountered while a seat swap was in progress and one of those involved in the swap put out a hand to steady themselves and pushed the throttles full forward. Speculation is based on lots of time in flight test where many seats swaps were observed. Who wouldn't have wanted to give the newbie a bit of stick time?

Of course that speculation is meaningless if all crew were found strapped in their appropriate seats.
6,000 feet, MSL, and within 30 miles of destination airport would be a highly inappropriate place to do a seat swap. And, a seat swap with the jump seat rider who was not authorized or qualified to fly the 767?
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