Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Airlines must be majority EU owned

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Airlines must be majority EU owned

Old 4th Feb 2019, 15:30
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: FL510
Posts: 790
Correct, EASA calls it Ownership and Control.
Word here is Lufthansa hired a bunch of high profile lawyers to study the case of critical airlines in terms of non-EU Ownership or Control, mostly IAG airlines, Ryanair, easyJet; and the day after Brexit (but only then) call for for rules to be strictly enforced, to gain an advantage of the situation.
safelife is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 16:18
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 71
Posts: 625
Most countries (including the EU) require national airlines to be both owned AND controlled by nationals of that country. That means that the majority of directors must be of that nationality too. Quite a problem for ALL UK airlines right now
Doesn't that then cause problems for airlines such as KLM, Brussels, Swiss, Austrian etc?
KelvinD is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 18:23
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: FL410
Posts: 811
No because they are majority EU owned, like UK airlines currently are.
It goes South when a country leaves the EU and their main shareholders are other EU interests, or in this case UK shareholders wishing to retain access to EU rights after leaving the EU
Skyjob is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 18:26
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 3,904
Originally Posted by safelife View Post
Correct, EASA calls it Ownership and Control.
Word here is Lufthansa hired a bunch of high profile lawyers to study the case of critical airlines in terms of non-EU Ownership or Control, mostly IAG airlines, Ryanair, easyJet; and the day after Brexit (but only then) call for for rules to be strictly enforced, to gain an advantage of the situation.
They have experience with that, they tried that on Air Berlin earlier as well, arguing that Etihad was controlling them although they only owned slightly below 30%. In that case it worked in the first instance, and got revoked in a higher court.

Doesn't that then cause problems for airlines such as KLM, Brussels, Swiss, Austrian etc?
I believe, as all those airlines are within European Common Aviation Area based on EU single market regulations which switzerland and norway joined, it doesn't. Although in the case of Swiss and Lufthansa i believe they do not own Swiss outright, but rather via a quite complicated construct that ensures majority swiss ownership, and Lufty assured that both the switzerland and austrian government assured in their bilateral traffic right agreements that the ownership structure of Swiss and Austrian was recognised or rather waived by their counterparts. However, to negotiate something like that requires time and quite a big political intervention, i can see that happen in the case of IAG, not so much with easyJet, Norwegian or Ryanair.
Denti is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 21:54
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Darkest Surrey
Posts: 5,353
Originally Posted by calypso View Post
Most countries (including the EU) require national airlines to be both owned AND controlled by nationals of that country. That means that the majority of directors must be of that nationality too. Quite a problem for ALL UK airlines right now
Not in the EU as any EU national can own an airline in another EU country, no country can enact a law to prevent it because that is contrary to the Freedom of movement.
racedo is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2019, 04:56
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: SV Marie Celeste
Posts: 504
In this case the EU acts as one country through the Common Aviation Area. I though that was implicit in my statement. The UK will become a third country hence this discussion
calypso is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2019, 09:13
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Luton
Posts: 370
When the rule came in, many years ago, there were exemptions for airlines who were already majority owned outside of the EU (2 UK airlines at that time spring to mind, Britannia Airways, which was 100% ownbed by the Thomson Corporation in Canada and Monarch Airlines which was 100% owned in Switzerland)

That ownership per permitted to continue (since they could force the business to find new owners) but if any ownership change was to occur subsequently then majority ownership had to be within the EU.

One would hope that for the UK based airlines, those similar rules are agreed as part of BREXIT. (and yes Thomas Cook is a UK PLC, therefore Condor for example is 100% owned by a UK parent currently. Of course what we don't know is the % of TCPLC shareholders who are EU based but not UK based, it may be they still ahve over 50% EU shareholding without any change.
clipstone1 is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2019, 10:10
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 71
Posts: 625
Most countries (including the EU) require national airlines to be both owned AND controlled by nationals of that country.
It was use of the word "nationals" that had me wondering, hence my comment/question.
Should that now read as "EU owned" or do we accept the EU is,in essence, taking on the mantle of a nation?
KelvinD is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2019, 16:39
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Darkest Surrey
Posts: 5,353
Originally Posted by calypso View Post
In this case the EU acts as one country through the Common Aviation Area. I though that was implicit in my statement. The UK will become a third country hence this discussion
There are no EU Nationals hence the point I made. UK will be a third country but I was focusing on the EU bit.
racedo is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2019, 16:54
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 680
Originally Posted by racedo View Post
There are no EU Nationals hence the point I made. UK will be a third country but I was focusing on the EU bit.
For the EU rules the definition is probably "EU citizens" - EU citizenship arrived with Maastricht Treaty.

The EU is not (yet) a single nation so you are correct that "EU nationals" doesn't make sense, strictly, however "National" and "Citizen" are often used interchangeably and are actually synonyms in various thesauri.
infrequentflyer789 is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2019, 14:36
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 858
I don't think the issue is whether UK nationals wil be able to go to Spain for their holidays. They will. Both EU and UK airlines will be able to

The issue is that because many "UK" airlines will wish to fly within the EU as well at the UK they will need to have a majority EU ownership status. So to preserve their business they may (EasyJet has I think) become majority EU owned. They are not really changing anything- it is the UK that has- they continue to be EU owned bit can't have their majority shareholding in the UK (which has left the club) anymore.

It poses a bit of a problem for IAG and British Airways may get caught up in divorce proceedings largely because of politics. It will be a bit amusing if "British Airways" is an EU owned and majority shareholder company.

Of course the UK will probably insist that British carriers are 51% UK owned- then expect British Airways and the other IAG companies to reflect different shareholding and an airline not flying within Europe (to from the UK) to have a British Identity. There aren't many of those at present (Eastern, Loganair, BMI Regional etc and for the moment Flybe?)

What a self inflicted mess. .
22/04 is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2019, 14:43
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 858
OOps not BMI Regional - they fly within Europe
22/04 is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2019, 20:41
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: .
Posts: 121
Originally Posted by Aso View Post
I thought this was a Professional Pilot network... But ok:
YES THEY CAN AND THIS WAS CLEAR FROM DAY1.....

And it is not
"can they do that"
but
"I didnt realise I voted for this and only now start to realize how the real world works ? I have no [email protected] clue about international traffic rights, my politicians lied to me as they knew but didnt tell me, my newspapers never told me honestly how the real world works and I believed lying Nigel who buggered off the day after the vote and realized what sh!t he had created"

So in short: THIS WAS CLEAR FROM DAY 1 SO CALL YOUR [email protected]@DY MP AND MOAN TO THEM AS THEY HAVE LIED TO YOU, NOBODY ELSE.

Ps: re negotiations: your politicians never told you it have never been NEGOTIATIONS. Under article 50 you have 6 (six) scenarios and you pick one. Your government was aware of this and has had 2 (TWO) year to pick one but they keep telling you we go back to Brussel to negotiate.... Lies, lies and politics... But hey keep dreaming of Rule Brittania and calling it project fear..


Rant over
Or maybe people don't see the dropping of a few intra-EU flights run by UK airlines so a handful of money grabbing pilots can keep their six figure salaries as the main driver behind Brexit. Assuming you work for a UK airline nice to see you hold 52% of your customers in such contempt. I assume you announce this to them upon boarding. Your final statement is beyond deluded.
t1grm is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2019, 21:57
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 858
It isn’t a few and it isn’t just pilots. As a shareholder I don’t want to give away a substantial part of the businesssnd hence my dividend for some outdated political dream - just as well I won’t have to. As I said there aren’t many UK airlines - not currently British Airways, EasyJet, TUI, Virgin Atlantic so which UK airline are you taliking of.
22/04 is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2019, 07:57
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 3,904
What does the UK/US open sky agreement say about ownership and control? The US said early on in the negotiations that they require the standard, which means BA et al need to be 50,1% owned by UK entities to fall under that agreement. Now idea how the final text reflects that, haven't really followed the talks about that.
Denti is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2019, 08:48
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Durham
Age: 74
Posts: 182
Talk about a minefield! Simple question, where does this leave Easyjet Switzerland after Brexit? EG. flight from Edinburgh to Stuttgart.
oldart is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2019, 09:26
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Dundee
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Aso View Post
But no airlines to fly the new NHS staff from abroad into the UK

Harsh? No sheer stupidity of the Brexiteers
Don't forget all the other insults you left out just for clarity...
weemonkey is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2019, 10:04
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 3,904
Originally Posted by oldart View Post
Talk about a minefield! Simple question, where does this leave Easyjet Switzerland after Brexit? EG. flight from Edinburgh to Stuttgart.
Interesting, however, from the EU side possible. Swiss airlines can fly from EU countries into third countries, they can fly from one EU country to another one, but they cannot fly (under their own flight number, but they can as wet lease) fly domestic flights in any EU country. In this case it would depend on any traffic right agreement between the EU and the UK as a third country.
Denti is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2019, 15:26
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Luton
Posts: 370
I think the only major UK airline that flies to the USA will be Thomas Cook Airlines UK Ltd, no one else with regular US flights is majority UK owned are they?
clipstone1 is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2019, 19:59
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: hector's house
Posts: 13
Assuming you work for a UK airline nice to see you hold 52% of your customers in such contempt.
UK airlines fly Europeans too so where does this %age come from?
hec7or is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.