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Air Astana flight serious problems over Lisbon

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Air Astana flight serious problems over Lisbon

Old 14th Nov 2018, 14:29
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Some real serious piloting went on during that flight!!!

What a great outcome.
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 16:38
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cappt View Post
Not an Embraer pilot, disconnecting the FCM and flying in direct mode as they did, would that have taken the spoilerons out of the loop leaving with them with just the reversed ailerons? Wow, what a fantastic flying job by this crew! I'm sure we will be studying this for years to come as an example of exceptional decision making and CRM.
In direct mode the spoilers will still operate for roll but at a fixed gain rather than speed sensitive.
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 16:48
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Machinbird View Post
In the configuration pictured in the synoptic page, the spoilers would be creating adverse yaw, while the ailerons would be rolling the aircraft (the wrong way). On instruments, I suspect the adverse yaw would play with your mind and make it even harder to keep the wings level.
Good thing they didn't crash right after rotation and were thus able to eventually work out their problems sufficiently to calm down a bit and land the aircraft.
The spoilers make proverse yaw, the way we want it. Yoke right, right spoilers up, more drag on the right side, right yaw.
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 17:20
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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I guess the bank angle protection only made things way worse trying to level up but instead increasing the roll. What a nightmare...

Last edited by MountainSnake; 14th Nov 2018 at 23:59. Reason: Spelling
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 18:40
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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PPRUNE seems to be a credible source of information : https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/air-astana-plane-pilots-lose-control-portugal-flightpath-embraer-190-a8629491.html
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 19:26
  #86 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by netra View Post
nope. according Kazakh news (unfortunately I can't provide source due to post restriction) the flightcrew was 40 y/c Captain (he looks more Russian than Kazakh to me) and two Kazakh FOs. the Brit was one of 4 engineers on board.
Thanks, Netra. Can you send me a PM with the link?
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 20:12
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Flight control check?

If this was just out of maintenance, wouldn't a "free and correct" check of the controls be on the to-do list prior to departure?

I'm not putting the blame on the pilots ... it just seems like an omission that could have been easily spotted.
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 22:45
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EternalNY1 View Post
If this was just out of maintenance, wouldn't a "free and correct" check of the controls be on the to-do list prior to departure?

I'm not putting the blame on the pilots ... it just seems like an omission that could have been easily spotted.
well, it is not the first time someone take off with missed items...
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 05:39
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vessbot
The spoilers make proverse yaw, the way we want it. Yoke right, right spoilers up, more drag on the right side, right yaw.
Only problem is, on this aircraft, in the problem configuration, yoke right, aircraft rolls left, spoilers create right yaw. Somehow, that doesn't feel like balanced flight to me, therefore the reason for my statement.
The thought of bank angle protection operating in that environment scares me, and I'm relatively fearless.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 05:54
  #90 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MountainSnake View Post
I guess the bank angle protection only made things way worse trying to level up but instead increasing the roll. What a nightmare...
Itís been a while but iirc there is no bank angle protection.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 05:56
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Machinbird View Post
Only problem is, on this aircraft, in the problem configuration, yoke right, aircraft rolls left, spoilers create right yaw. Somehow, that doesn't feel like balanced flight to me, therefore the reason for my statement.
The thought of bank angle protection operating in that environment scares me, and I'm relatively fearless.
The rollspoilers also create a roll tendency by reducing the lift of the wing.
So basicly, when using small inputs, the airplane will roll in the wrong direction because only the aileron actuates.
When using larger inputs the spoilers will have more authority than the aileron, reversing the roll in the right direction. Crazy flying.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 06:00
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Angel

'Bank Angle' is an alert only. There's no protection in roll. The wing will go down until you stop it.

I'm sure there is much more to this than "just" the aileron issue. Maybe weather, maybe crew, maybe something else.

Just giving thanks that they all survived.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 07:57
  #93 (permalink)  
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Here's the Kazakh report about the Captain (Russian) that Netra mentioned as well as a half decent Google translation. According to another report from the same source, the airline suspects errors during C-Check maintenance as a probable cause.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 08:21
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Am I correct in thinking that an A320 had a similar issue following maitnenance with reverse connected roll control surfaces on a pax flight out of LGW several years ago? Or is my memory at fault?
7B
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 08:24
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 777boyo View Post
Am I correct in thinking that an A320 had a similar issue following maitnenance with reverse connected roll control surfaces on a pax flight out of LGW several years ago? Or is my memory at fault?
7B
via AVH https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...a-a320-130318/
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 08:30
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Do we have any idea what happened (short of "maintenance error")?!
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 08:46
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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No wonder they had control problems with a control column shaped like that!
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 10:22
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Fantastic effort by the crew to 'recover' from this problem.
Maintenance Contractor may well have some awkward questions to answer.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 10:36
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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How many previous crossed-cable incidents happened on aircraft that also had roll spoilers? Most of the types mentioned above predate automated roll spoilers.

As noted above, if the sense of the controls is exactly reversed you might get used to it (for example using the one hand on each column method) but if the controls essentially reverse authority as you command more roll (due to the ailerons being overpowered by the roll spoilers) then you're in a very rarely explored situation. If there are some exceptional-airmanship awards being handed out, these guys should be near the front of the line.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:24
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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. If there are some exceptional-airmanship awards being handed out, these guys should be near the front of the line.
Possibly. If we draw a line after the pre flight control check, post maintenance.
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