Indonesian aircraft missing off Jakarta
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Still there on the MAX. Although rarely used that I can tell, it can be handy when maneuvering around multiple buildups, when in mountain wave, or when in moderate or greater turbulence.
Salute!
Thanks, 100%
Sometimes the fault tree analysis ignores the possibility that a 'single point failure' in one system has a branch to another system. In my theory, inputs to the trim system could be fine, or could be erroneous. But did the fault tree also allow for a mechanical problem with the trim system?
So we wind up with bad data presented to the crew and bad data given to the trim system and then a possible mechanical problem with the trim system, even poor lubrication as we had with Air Alaska.
Recordings should be interesting, and I hope they result in 1) better systems, and 2) better training.
Gums sends...
Thanks, 100%
Sometimes the fault tree analysis ignores the possibility that a 'single point failure' in one system has a branch to another system. In my theory, inputs to the trim system could be fine, or could be erroneous. But did the fault tree also allow for a mechanical problem with the trim system?
So we wind up with bad data presented to the crew and bad data given to the trim system and then a possible mechanical problem with the trim system, even poor lubrication as we had with Air Alaska.
Recordings should be interesting, and I hope they result in 1) better systems, and 2) better training.
Gums sends...
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 803
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HundredPercentPlease
You are saying that *by design* a single blocked orifice (pitot or static vent) can put the pilot's control systems in a state such that conventionnally trained and certified airplane pilots will quite reasonably be expected to lose control and terminate in an encounter with terrain at speed, even though control surfaces and engines are fully functional.
You are saying that *by design* a single blocked orifice (pitot or static vent) can put the pilot's control systems in a state such that conventionnally trained and certified airplane pilots will quite reasonably be expected to lose control and terminate in an encounter with terrain at speed, even though control surfaces and engines are fully functional.
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 803
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilots are getting it wrong (see the Turkish business jet thread) and this trend has to be reversed. To do that, everyone needs to understand why they are getting it wrong.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Lion Air crash: Major setback in search for plane
THE search for a key piece of the puzzle in the Lion Air crash mystery has come up empty-handed, after experts believed they had finally zeroed in.Staff writers with AP and AFP
News Corp Australia Network November 1, 2018 7:28amExperts believed they had finally discovered the fuselage, or main body of the aircraft, but instead, the 22-metre-long object detected on the sea floor turned out to be aircraft debris and passenger belongings.
Muhammad Syaugi, head of Indonesia’s Search and Rescue Agency, told reporters on Wednesday that the search effort was battling strong currents but they remained confident the aircraft hull would be found.
The discovery of the Boeing 737-MAX jet’s main body would have been a breakthrough in solving the mystery as investigators were hoping it would lead them to flight data recorders, referred to colloquially as “black boxes”.
Pings, believed to be from the flight recorder due to their regular intervals, had been detected earlier but the strength of the currents has prevented the black box from being recovered.
Data from flight-tracking sites show the plane had erratic speed and altitude in the early minutes of a previous flight on Sunday and on its fatal flight on Monday.
Two passengers on the Sunday Bali-bound flight [wasn't it actually DPS-CGK? - Airbubba] interviewed on Indonesian TV recalled unsettling details such as a strange engine sound, a smell of burnt cables, and panicked passengers crying out for God to save them as the plane rapidly lost altitude.
Later in the flight, a man who was either the captain or first officer walked through the plane and returned to the cockpit with what looked like a large manual.
https://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...971637c2c2f57e
I realize there are lots of "what-if" failures that can combine in instrument failure conditions. However the liklihood of such combinations need be consider in the design and mitigated to better then 10E-9 by redundancy or the ability of the pilot to still be able to effect a safe landing.
If we can't rely on the pilot to use his trained resource management than we shouldn't be flying. Now I don't know what has gone wrong in this accident, but before we start blaming the design, we need to find out what went wrong between the interface of the machine and the pilot
If we can't rely on the pilot to use his trained resource management than we shouldn't be flying. Now I don't know what has gone wrong in this accident, but before we start blaming the design, we need to find out what went wrong between the interface of the machine and the pilot
It’s all in the checklist for unreliable airspeed.
Check pilot’s airspeed, check FO’s, check the standby, work out which one is faulty whilst referring to the documented power setting and climb angle that will give a consistent S&L attitude.
Turning back by hand flying without determining which one is at fault / which one to trust is fraught with danger. Elevator starts to get spongy / unusual feelings, because the computer generated feedback to the controls is up the creek because it thinks you’re at a speed that you aren’t and won’t let you pull hard at times.
Turn gets tighter, speed looks to be decaying, turns too tight and puts it into a dive, going from 300 knots to 600 knots and parts start to fall off.
Check pilot’s airspeed, check FO’s, check the standby, work out which one is faulty whilst referring to the documented power setting and climb angle that will give a consistent S&L attitude.
Turning back by hand flying without determining which one is at fault / which one to trust is fraught with danger. Elevator starts to get spongy / unusual feelings, because the computer generated feedback to the controls is up the creek because it thinks you’re at a speed that you aren’t and won’t let you pull hard at times.
Turn gets tighter, speed looks to be decaying, turns too tight and puts it into a dive, going from 300 knots to 600 knots and parts start to fall off.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sometimes their list defaults to having "C" (for crash) occurrences disabled when loading the front page. Just click on the red "C" button on top (the row of colored buttons after "Filter:") and it will be shown. It's also hard to see which categories are enabled (black letter) and which are disabled (grey letter). The site still has a bit of a weird "Web 1.0" feel to it, but it's usually very informative.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Age: 79
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After 358 postings most of what we have is speculation and noise.
FACT: The aircraft impacted the sea apparantly due to loss of control.
UNKNOWNS:
1) We do not know the nature of the original failure. Only the flight data and voice recorders can give us any clues.
2) Was it possible to recover the situation within the limits of available altitude and time using the standard procedures and assuming a crew of average skills.
My thoughts are with any crew faced with a control problem at low altitude, multiple conflicting alarms and conflicting information. Sometimes the is a hidden gotcha waiting to bite, for example AF446 had a stall warning system which failed every time IAS fell below a set limit because the system assumed that the aircraft must be on the ground. A sensible system would not have done this without weight on the wheels.
FACT: The aircraft impacted the sea apparantly due to loss of control.
UNKNOWNS:
1) We do not know the nature of the original failure. Only the flight data and voice recorders can give us any clues.
2) Was it possible to recover the situation within the limits of available altitude and time using the standard procedures and assuming a crew of average skills.
My thoughts are with any crew faced with a control problem at low altitude, multiple conflicting alarms and conflicting information. Sometimes the is a hidden gotcha waiting to bite, for example AF446 had a stall warning system which failed every time IAS fell below a set limit because the system assumed that the aircraft must be on the ground. A sensible system would not have done this without weight on the wheels.
Last edited by The Ancient Geek; 1st Nov 2018 at 01:16.
Pilots are getting it wrong (see the Turkish business jet thread) and this trend has to be reversed.
http://www.boeing.com/resources/boei...df/statsum.pdf
Of course we must not forget that silence can speak volumes. Passenger stories we have had, yes, but strangely no interviews with the flight crew from the previous day's flight have yet emerged, to my knowledge. Crucial, would we not think? Possibly the latest sackings/suspensions were based on such internal investigation. This area is where I would lay my silver shilling.
In light of this, surely an unexpected occurrence on Monday like a microburst, bird strike, bomb, etc, will be discounted.
In light of this, surely an unexpected occurrence on Monday like a microburst, bird strike, bomb, etc, will be discounted.
Originally Posted by Iccy2001
What is the TREND you are talking about
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
A report that the 'black box' has been found:
Lion Air crash: Black box of sunken JT610 believed to have been recovered
JAKARTA - Indonesian divers on Thursday (Nov 1) appeared to have recovered the black box that holds vital clues on what caused Lion Air flight JT610 to crash into Java Sea on Monday in one of the country's worst aviation disasters in history.
"We followed the device, and narrowed the area (of search) and then we dug again the location where the sensitive (ping) sound was heard and finally found the blackbox," said diver Hendra who found the black box.
The national search and rescue agency Basarnas chief Muhammad Syaugi told reporters earlier that the search on Thursday morning will focus on sector four of the search area that is divided into 13 sectors.
"(Sector four) is the area where we detected what we suspect is a body part of the plane. And also where we picked up the 'ping'," he said, referring to the sound emitting from the black boxes and picked up by underwater "pinger locators".
The search area has been doubled in size to cover a 10-nautical-mile-radius area with the centre located at the point where the plane lost contact with air traffic controllers shortly after take-off on Monday morning.
Syaugi told Elshinta radio on Thursday morning that the search teams will have a better chance of recovering the black boxes on Thursday after they received the go-ahead from state oil company Pertamina to throw an anchor to stabilise the main search and rescue vessel."Yesterday afternoon, the currents were strong. We had to throw an anchor, but we only had clearance to do so last night from Pertamina. The sea floor there is lined with Pertamina pipes," head of the national search and rescue agency (Basarnas) Muhammad Syaugi told Elshinta radio on Thursday morning.
Published
1 hour agoJAKARTA - Indonesian divers on Thursday (Nov 1) appeared to have recovered the black box that holds vital clues on what caused Lion Air flight JT610 to crash into Java Sea on Monday in one of the country's worst aviation disasters in history.
"We followed the device, and narrowed the area (of search) and then we dug again the location where the sensitive (ping) sound was heard and finally found the blackbox," said diver Hendra who found the black box.
The national search and rescue agency Basarnas chief Muhammad Syaugi told reporters earlier that the search on Thursday morning will focus on sector four of the search area that is divided into 13 sectors.
"(Sector four) is the area where we detected what we suspect is a body part of the plane. And also where we picked up the 'ping'," he said, referring to the sound emitting from the black boxes and picked up by underwater "pinger locators".
The search area has been doubled in size to cover a 10-nautical-mile-radius area with the centre located at the point where the plane lost contact with air traffic controllers shortly after take-off on Monday morning.
Syaugi told Elshinta radio on Thursday morning that the search teams will have a better chance of recovering the black boxes on Thursday after they received the go-ahead from state oil company Pertamina to throw an anchor to stabilise the main search and rescue vessel."Yesterday afternoon, the currents were strong. We had to throw an anchor, but we only had clearance to do so last night from Pertamina. The sea floor there is lined with Pertamina pipes," head of the national search and rescue agency (Basarnas) Muhammad Syaugi told Elshinta radio on Thursday morning.