Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Indonesian aircraft missing off Jakarta

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Indonesian aircraft missing off Jakarta

Old 31st Oct 2018, 22:16
  #341 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,435
Originally Posted by SRM View Post
Would using CWS in this situation assisted.
Is CWS still used in the 737? It's been disabled for years on the larger Boeings that I've flown. Is it still an option?
Airbubba is online now  
Old 31st Oct 2018, 22:18
  #342 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 2,211
We had it on our NGs. It was dreadful and no one used it.
HundredPercentPlease is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2018, 22:32
  #343 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Is CWS still used in the 737? It's been disabled for years on the larger Boeings that I've flown. Is it still an option?
Still there on the MAX. Although rarely used that I can tell, it can be handy when maneuvering around multiple buildups, when in mountain wave, or when in moderate or greater turbulence.
GoingBoeing7X7 is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2018, 22:41
  #344 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: florida
Age: 77
Posts: 1,141
Salute!

Thanks, 100%

Sometimes the fault tree analysis ignores the possibility that a 'single point failure' in one system has a branch to another system. In my theory, inputs to the trim system could be fine, or could be erroneous. But did the fault tree also allow for a mechanical problem with the trim system?

So we wind up with bad data presented to the crew and bad data given to the trim system and then a possible mechanical problem with the trim system, even poor lubrication as we had with Air Alaska.

Recordings should be interesting, and I hope they result in 1) better systems, and 2) better training.

Gums sends...
gums is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2018, 22:43
  #345 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 509
Originally Posted by edmundronald View Post
HundredPercentPlease
You are saying that *by design* a single blocked orifice (pitot or static vent) can put the pilot's control systems in a state such that conventionnally trained and certified airplane pilots will quite reasonably be expected to lose control and terminate in an encounter with terrain at speed, even though control surfaces and engines are fully functional.
It takes far less than a blocked orifice to do that (Flash 604, Indian 605, Aeroflot 593, Turkish 1951, Asiana 214...)
Vessbot is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2018, 22:51
  #346 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 11,304
Originally Posted by Vessbot View Post
It takes far less than a blocked orifice to do that (Flash 604, Indian 605, Aeroflot 593, Turkish 1951, Asiana 214...)
That still doesn't mean that the loss of an aircraft with all on board is an outcome that it's "reasonable" (in any sense of the word) to expect.
DaveReidUK is online now  
Old 31st Oct 2018, 22:58
  #347 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 509
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
That still doesn't mean that the loss of an aircraft with all on board is an outcome that it's "reasonable" (in any sense of the word) to expect.
You're right, not reasonable at all. But unexpected? Not so sure...
Vessbot is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2018, 23:01
  #348 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 2,211
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
That still doesn't mean that the loss of an aircraft with all on board is an outcome that it's "reasonable" (in any sense of the word) to expect.
Has anyone suggested or said that it's "reasonable"?

Pilots are getting it wrong (see the Turkish business jet thread) and this trend has to be reversed. To do that, everyone needs to understand why they are getting it wrong.
HundredPercentPlease is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2018, 23:52
  #349 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,435
Originally Posted by .Scott View Post
There are many reports saying that they have picked up the pings and found the main wreckage.
Now reports say the main wreckage is not found:

Lion Air crash: Major setback in search for plane

THE search for a key piece of the puzzle in the Lion Air crash mystery has come up empty-handed, after experts believed they had finally zeroed in.
Staff writers with AP and AFP
News Corp Australia Network November 1, 2018 7:28am
THE search for downed Lion Air flight JT610 has suffered an unexpected setback after the quest to recover the body of the aeroplane came up empty-handed.

Experts believed they had finally discovered the fuselage, or main body of the aircraft, but instead, the 22-metre-long object detected on the sea floor turned out to be aircraft debris and passenger belongings.

Muhammad Syaugi, head of Indonesia’s Search and Rescue Agency, told reporters on Wednesday that the search effort was battling strong currents but they remained confident the aircraft hull would be found.

The discovery of the Boeing 737-MAX jet’s main body would have been a breakthrough in solving the mystery as investigators were hoping it would lead them to flight data recorders, referred to colloquially as “black boxes”.

Pings, believed to be from the flight recorder due to their regular intervals, had been detected earlier but the strength of the currents has prevented the black box from being recovered.

Data from flight-tracking sites show the plane had erratic speed and altitude in the early minutes of a previous flight on Sunday and on its fatal flight on Monday.


Two passengers on the Sunday Bali-bound flight [wasn't it actually DPS-CGK? - Airbubba] interviewed on Indonesian TV recalled unsettling details such as a strange engine sound, a smell of burnt cables, and panicked passengers crying out for God to save them as the plane rapidly lost altitude.

Later in the flight, a man who was either the captain or first officer walked through the plane and returned to the cockpit with what looked like a large manual.



https://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...971637c2c2f57e
Airbubba is online now  
Old 31st Oct 2018, 23:57
  #350 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,248
I realize there are lots of "what-if" failures that can combine in instrument failure conditions. However the liklihood of such combinations need be consider in the design and mitigated to better then 10E-9 by redundancy or the ability of the pilot to still be able to effect a safe landing.

If we can't rely on the pilot to use his trained resource management than we shouldn't be flying. Now I don't know what has gone wrong in this accident, but before we start blaming the design, we need to find out what went wrong between the interface of the machine and the pilot
lomapaseo is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2018, 00:01
  #351 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,500
It’s all in the checklist for unreliable airspeed.

Check pilot’s airspeed, check FO’s, check the standby, work out which one is faulty whilst referring to the documented power setting and climb angle that will give a consistent S&L attitude.

Turning back by hand flying without determining which one is at fault / which one to trust is fraught with danger. Elevator starts to get spongy / unusual feelings, because the computer generated feedback to the controls is up the creek because it thinks you’re at a speed that you aren’t and won’t let you pull hard at times.

Turn gets tighter, speed looks to be decaying, turns too tight and puts it into a dive, going from 300 knots to 600 knots and parts start to fall off.
Squawk7700 is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2018, 00:02
  #352 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 3.5 from TD
Posts: 1,008
Anybody know why avherald has not posted this accident yet? They are usually very quick.
Sqwak7700 is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2018, 00:13
  #353 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
Posts: 7,929
It has: Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2018, 00:30
  #354 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 533
Originally Posted by Sqwak7700 View Post
Anybody know why avherald has not posted this accident yet? They are usually very quick.
Sometimes their list defaults to having "C" (for crash) occurrences disabled when loading the front page. Just click on the red "C" button on top (the row of colored buttons after "Filter:") and it will be shown. It's also hard to see which categories are enabled (black letter) and which are disabled (grey letter). The site still has a bit of a weird "Web 1.0" feel to it, but it's usually very informative.
bsieker is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2018, 00:49
  #355 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Age: 75
Posts: 1,066
After 358 postings most of what we have is speculation and noise.
FACT: The aircraft impacted the sea apparantly due to loss of control.
UNKNOWNS:
1) We do not know the nature of the original failure. Only the flight data and voice recorders can give us any clues.
2) Was it possible to recover the situation within the limits of available altitude and time using the standard procedures and assuming a crew of average skills.

My thoughts are with any crew faced with a control problem at low altitude, multiple conflicting alarms and conflicting information. Sometimes the is a hidden gotcha waiting to bite, for example AF446 had a stall warning system which failed every time IAS fell below a set limit because the system assumed that the aircraft must be on the ground. A sensible system would not have done this without weight on the wheels.

Last edited by The Ancient Geek; 1st Nov 2018 at 01:16.
The Ancient Geek is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2018, 02:52
  #356 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 2,802
Pilots are getting it wrong (see the Turkish business jet thread) and this trend has to be reversed.
Some pilots will get it wrong, we will continue to crash aeroplanes and kill people. What is the TREND you are talking about because from the numbers I look at the TREND of accidents is getting better, that is, less crashes measured against hours flown or hulls operating, pretty much any metric you like. Do you have a different set of numbers?

http://www.boeing.com/resources/boei...df/statsum.pdf
Icarus2001 is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2018, 03:12
  #357 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Japan
Posts: 675
Of course we must not forget that silence can speak volumes. Passenger stories we have had, yes, but strangely no interviews with the flight crew from the previous day's flight have yet emerged, to my knowledge. Crucial, would we not think? Possibly the latest sackings/suspensions were based on such internal investigation. This area is where I would lay my silver shilling.

In light of this, surely an unexpected occurrence on Monday like a microburst, bird strike, bomb, etc, will be discounted.
jolihokistix is online now  
Old 1st Nov 2018, 04:09
  #358 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
Posts: 7,929
Originally Posted by Iccy2001
What is the TREND you are talking about
The increasing percentage of Loss of Control accidents. Can you imagine what the safety record would be like if pilots could still fly aeroplanes?
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2018, 04:12
  #359 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: SG
Posts: 2
Black box is found
The box was recovered at 10.15am in waters off Tanjung Karawang, West Java.
Vivo1718 is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2018, 04:25
  #360 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,435
A report that the 'black box' has been found:

Lion Air crash: Black box of sunken JT610 believed to have been recovered
Published
1 hour ago

JAKARTA - Indonesian divers on Thursday (Nov 1) appeared to have recovered the black box that holds vital clues on what caused Lion Air flight JT610 to crash into Java Sea on Monday in one of the country's worst aviation disasters in history.

"We followed the device, and narrowed the area (of search) and then we dug again the location where the sensitive (ping) sound was heard and finally found the blackbox," said diver Hendra who found the black box.

The national search and rescue agency Basarnas chief Muhammad Syaugi told reporters earlier that the search on Thursday morning will focus on sector four of the search area that is divided into 13 sectors.

"(Sector four) is the area where we detected what we suspect is a body part of the plane. And also where we picked up the 'ping'," he said, referring to the sound emitting from the black boxes and picked up by underwater "pinger locators".

The search area has been doubled in size to cover a 10-nautical-mile-radius area with the centre located at the point where the plane lost contact with air traffic controllers shortly after take-off on Monday morning.

Syaugi told Elshinta radio on Thursday morning that the search teams will have a better chance of recovering the black boxes on Thursday after they received the go-ahead from state oil company Pertamina to throw an anchor to stabilise the main search and rescue vessel."Yesterday afternoon, the currents were strong. We had to throw an anchor, but we only had clearance to do so last night from Pertamina. The sea floor there is lined with Pertamina pipes," head of the national search and rescue agency (Basarnas) Muhammad Syaugi told Elshinta radio on Thursday morning.
Airbubba is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.