Indonesian aircraft missing off Jakarta
Possible finding of aircraft:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-...found/10451774
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-...found/10451774
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Lion Air - the worst airline in the world,hard to believe but no African airline is even worse but it is true, it had the worst track record even before this accident, over 12 accidents/incidents since 2002. I suspect it is no coincidence, the “quality” of this airline and this crash are directly related.
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"The jet that crashed in Indonesia flew erratically during a flight the previous evening and experienced a "technical problem", according to flight tracking website FlightRadar24.
After taking off from Denpasar on the holiday island of Bali on Sunday evening - the day before the crash - the Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX jet reported unusual variations in altitude and airspeed at the beginning of the flight.This included an 875ft drop over 27 seconds, when it would normally be ascending, before stabilising and flying on to Jakarta"
https://news.sky.com/story/lion-air-...crash-11539864
https://news.sky.com/story/lion-air-...crash-11539864
Look at the media photos of the debris recovered so far, for example.
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I find it amazing that they are still unable to locate the wreck.
Look at the ROW debris field on the runway. At 500 mph the water surface is not significantly softer than a concrete runway.
Unless the aircraft already broke apart in the air (which slows down the pieces, no longer having an aerodynamic shape), we cannot expect many large pieces of wreckage left.
Which means the investigators will be mainly left with the CVR/FDR data and not too much "hardware" which still tells a story.
Sixty-foot section of something found. See Captain Bloggs above, post #285
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se...er-plane-crash
The blame game has started or the deflective smoke screen.
The blame game has started or the deflective smoke screen.
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Classic third world response , find someone to blame and get rid of them ! Problem solved ! It will never happen again ! CVR and FDR still floating around the bottom of the sea but they have it sorted .
“Today we will replace Lion’s technical director with somebody else, along with engineers being in charge of and recommending the flight,” Transportation Minister Budi Karya Sumadi said, according to Detik news.
That could suggest it was no longer attached to the fuselage (and falling considerably more slowly, hence remaining relatively intact) by the time it hit the water.
That could suggest it was no longer attached to the fuselage (and falling considerably more slowly, hence remaining relatively intact) by the time it hit the water.
Let's see if it is part of an aeroplane first.
Can somebody familiar with the Speed Trim System please comment on whether it would have been engaging and disengaging if the aircraft accelerated and decelerated through 300 KIAS. Thanks.
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ADS B;
Just which transponder was active is unknown, and what air data sources it was using also unknown. Just in case 'unreliable airspeed" had occurred, (usually this fault may well have included altitude)
Let's not read too much (or anything at all) into the radar24 kind of source. (on some of the latest systems, and this plane sure was the latest, GPS data may have been providing , but that's unlikely in my view although I don't know the ground station resources)
Flight Controls;
The 737 does not have any system capable of denying or overriding pilots control of the basic elevator/aileron/rudder and even FADEC, on a Boeing,does not override within the range needed to essentially have full thrust control. So.....
Flight conditions; (IMC/VMC).....instrument/visual control
If this plane was in VMC, there is no reason (except structural failure) why the crew could not continue in a 'rough-and-ready' way and return more or less safely. Pretty well all pilots have done the 'no instruments circuit' in the simulator. It's rough and ready but doable. In IMC there is a different dynamic, requiring the pilots to ignore their motion sensations and obey the instruments! This assumes
they are able to evaluate which ones are accurate, but the plane is certificated with reliable independent standby essential instruments to assist this evaluation .
Should controlled flight be lost though,the moment the plane comes out into VMC again the crew can instantly regain orientation and proceed in the 'no instruments' emergency mode.
I have no idea, like all of us, what caused this terrible accident. But let's not read too much into what ADSB monitoring sites report.
Just which transponder was active is unknown, and what air data sources it was using also unknown. Just in case 'unreliable airspeed" had occurred, (usually this fault may well have included altitude)
Let's not read too much (or anything at all) into the radar24 kind of source. (on some of the latest systems, and this plane sure was the latest, GPS data may have been providing , but that's unlikely in my view although I don't know the ground station resources)
Flight Controls;
The 737 does not have any system capable of denying or overriding pilots control of the basic elevator/aileron/rudder and even FADEC, on a Boeing,does not override within the range needed to essentially have full thrust control. So.....
Flight conditions; (IMC/VMC).....instrument/visual control
If this plane was in VMC, there is no reason (except structural failure) why the crew could not continue in a 'rough-and-ready' way and return more or less safely. Pretty well all pilots have done the 'no instruments circuit' in the simulator. It's rough and ready but doable. In IMC there is a different dynamic, requiring the pilots to ignore their motion sensations and obey the instruments! This assumes
they are able to evaluate which ones are accurate, but the plane is certificated with reliable independent standby essential instruments to assist this evaluation .
Should controlled flight be lost though,the moment the plane comes out into VMC again the crew can instantly regain orientation and proceed in the 'no instruments' emergency mode.
I have no idea, like all of us, what caused this terrible accident. But let's not read too much into what ADSB monitoring sites report.
Last edited by T28B; 31st Oct 2018 at 18:20. Reason: awful formatting corrected
Bomb could have caused Lion Air crash - aviation expert
"We have an airplane that started a normal descent [sic] and then just nosed over"
"We have an airplane that started a normal descent [sic] and then just nosed over"
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Spoiler Control Valve QA Question
Wasn’t there a long running discussion on Techlog regarding a whistleblower reporting manufacturing QA violations on 737 Spoiler Control valves?
What would be the impact of a stuck or cycling spoiler on control?
I’m thinking that stuck up would be manageable, but random cycling would be interesting.
What would be the impact of a stuck or cycling spoiler on control?
I’m thinking that stuck up would be manageable, but random cycling would be interesting.
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What is ridiculous is that in 2018 a covered static vent is able to create such a situation and basically crash a plane.
Modern aircraft rely much more on automation of highly integrated systems and profit from the significaltly higher reliability of the modern systems (electronics vs. electromechanical).
At the same time pilot training has changed from basic flying perfection to efficient procedures and system management, well trained to handle any situation the engineers thought of by the best procedure.
If all goes well, safety figures go up a lot. There is no question that aviation is mucher safer today than it has been 30 years ago.
If for any reason something goes wrong, no matter how low the probability, you lose a lot. And not every pilot is able to handle what is left, especially if something he was not trained for goes wrong,
If this plane was in VMC, there is no reason (except structural failure) why the crew could not continue in a 'rough-and-ready' way and return more or less safely.
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Boeing which is participating in the probe, has privately expressed an interest in whether the pilots received unreliable speed data and about the maintenance history of the plane, according to people familiar with the conversations.
A Boeing spokesman declined to comment, referring to the company’s previous statement that it was providing technical assistance in the probe and directing questions to Indonesian authorities.
A Boeing spokesman declined to comment, referring to the company’s previous statement that it was providing technical assistance in the probe and directing questions to Indonesian authorities.
Will they haul the thing roughly out of the sea like they did the last one?
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If anyone actually cares about the quality of various ADS-B sources then this is worth a read, in German unofunrtately but google translate does an OK job: https://www5.in.tum.de/pub/Zintl2017_BA.pdf