Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Air Canada A321 landed despite go-around order

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Air Canada A321 landed despite go-around order

Old 31st Aug 2018, 19:00
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Salzburg
Posts: 93
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
So the fact that the 18th August event isn't (yet?) listed doesn't necessarily mean there won't be an investigation, notwithstanding Avherald's jumping to conclusions.
It is obvious that you aren't in possession of the details and you are jumping to conclusions. The TSB has already stated the occurrence class: Class 5. No investigation. I recommend you check what occurrence investigation class 5 means at the TSB.

The AVH never jumps to conclusions - opposite to you, who repeatedly sell your conclusions as fact even though they are verifyably completely wrong, and you even started to campaign against AVH with your "facts".
Austrian Simon is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2018, 19:22
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Northampton
Age: 63
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by TangoAlphad View Post
I dunno.. I've seen it happen. Check in with tower and set ground on stby and force of habit changing a fx then pressing swap over. Just saying it is not beyond the realms of possibility.
Not beyond possibility for sure. But staying on the right freq for where you are is pretty fundamantal really. Why in hell would you change comms while still on approach?
Rabski is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2018, 19:24
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by TangoAlphad View Post
I dunno.. I've seen it happen. Check in with tower and set ground on stby and force of habit changing a fx then pressing swap over. Just saying it is not beyond the realms of possibility.


I heard that happen just today: aircraft on final found on the ground frequency and subsequently cleared to land by the ground controller (after an apology from the crew)
fab777 is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2018, 19:30
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Northampton
Age: 63
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by fab777 View Post



I heard that happen just today: aircraft on final found on the ground frequency and subsequently cleared to land by the ground controller (after an apology from the crew)
The point is that separation of duties is key. Ground in anywhere I know are usually sitting next to the people in ATC doing inbound and approach, but having ground starting to give landing clearance looks like a perfect way to cause havoc.
Rabski is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2018, 19:51
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 10,653
Originally Posted by Austrian Simon View Post
The TSB has already stated the occurrence class: Class 5. No investigation. I recommend you check what occurrence investigation class 5 means at the TSB.
Thank you, but I'm perfectly familiar with TSB classifications.

Class 5 does not preclude an investigation, though it's obviously not used for events that involve damage, injury, etc and require significant resources such as deploying a go-team. Nor indeed does it preclude subsequently upgrading the event to a higher classification should that be deemed appropriate.

Given the media attention that the event has attracted, I suggest we watch this space.

FlightGlobal: Air Canada A321 landed despite go-around order
DaveReidUK is online now  
Old 31st Aug 2018, 21:27
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Not lost, but slightly uncertain of position.
Posts: 208
Why didn't the controller try to call them up on guard frequency? Don't most commercial aircraft have one radio dedicated to listen in on 121.5? And the controller probably have a touch key on his screen to enable him to transmit on guard easily .
F-16GUY is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2018, 22:26
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The world's most liveable city
Posts: 216
Why didn't the controller try to call them up on guard frequency? Don't most commercial aircraft have one radio dedicated to listen in on 121.5? And the controller probably have a touch key on his screen to enable him to transmit on guard easily.
Not in any tower that I have worked in, or know of! The best we have is a hand held that has to be switched on, changed to 121.5 cos itís probably set to TWR or Ground freq. Weíll try comm checks on TWR, check with APP if the acft is with them, maybe get Ground to broadcast, and show the signal lamp
RAC/OPS is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2018, 05:13
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 2,759
Originally Posted by Rabski View Post
Not beyond possibility for sure. But staying on the right freq for where you are is pretty fundamantal really. Why in hell would you change comms while still on approach?
Itís a mistake, you donít do it on purpose. Ive seen someone change to Tower when they were supposed to be on Approach. Itís caused by your brain running in auto mode and doing things without conscious thought.
AerocatS2A is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2018, 09:54
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: US
Age: 61
Posts: 399
Originally Posted by F-16GUY View Post
Why didn't the controller try to call them up on guard frequency? Don't most commercial aircraft have one radio dedicated to listen in on 121.5? And the controller probably have a touch key on his screen to enable him to transmit on guard easily .
often in the approach phase the number two radio is tuned to company operations or the ramp to get gate assignments and pass maintenance and other requests. Often does not get switched back to 121.5. I doubt tower has a guard transmitter anyway. Normally enroute sectors have that.
Sailvi767 is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2018, 10:59
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 56
At my Airlines, it is SOP to switch off guard below 10K, so one is not disturbed by the kiddies making animal noises during climbout and landing. Part of the sterile flight deck procedure.
fab777 is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2018, 11:11
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Northampton
Age: 63
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by AerocatS2A View Post

Itís a mistake, you donít do it on purpose. Ive seen someone change to Tower when they were supposed to be on Approach. Itís caused by your brain running in auto mode and doing things without conscious thought.
Of course nobody does it on purpose. And of course we've all messed up at one time or another. However, there really are some fundamental errors that nobody at the sharp end should make. Changing comm freq when you are utterly reliant on communications has to come under the 'insane' category surely. That's exactly the time nobody should be on 'auto mode'. It's the one time we do (or used to) earn our living.

There are some things we all (well I do) remember from our very first lessons. The basics, which keep you safe.
Rabski is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2018, 13:15
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 2,759
Well, as I say, I’ve been sitting next to someone who has done the very same thing. Normally a very good operator, but his brain just did something automatically without thought. The most dangerous thought a pilot can have is that there is a category of errors so fundamentally basic that he could never make one. I have had an FO select flap to zero instead of the gear up. He never thought it would be an error he could possibly make, and yet he made it.
AerocatS2A is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2018, 15:01
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,418
Originally Posted by fab777 View Post
At my Airlines, it is SOP to switch off guard below 10K, so one is not disturbed by the kiddies making animal noises during climbout and landing. Part of the sterile flight deck procedure.
Not unheard of to hear a tower or approach controller needing to use guard to give someone instructions. May want to raise that possibility with your flight operations management.
Check Airman is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2018, 15:08
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
Posts: 7,767
Originally Posted by Check Airman
Not unheard of to hear a tower or approach controller needing to use guard to give someone instructions.
Does ATC have the capability to transit on 121.5? RAC/OPS above says no (apart from a handheld) and ATC in my neck of the woods cannot TX on 121.5.
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2018, 15:49
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Toronto
Age: 52
Posts: 519
Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs View Post
Does ATC have the capability to transit on 121.5? RAC/OPS above says no (apart from a handheld) and ATC in my neck of the woods cannot TX on 121.5.
My tower does but it takes numerous button pushes on a touch screen to get the frequency active or configure a hand-held, which would take longer as its set up as a back up to your frequency.
In the case of a late go around instruction, there would not be time to configure either. We do occasionally inquire on guard for aircraft no longer listening. Sometimes find them there too.
cossack is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2018, 11:37
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Europe
Posts: 157
Regarding ATC (tower/ground) on 121,5... A few weeks ago at Munich airport, a Air Canada (hopefully a coincidence) A330 was holding for 08L with ground and tower trying to reach them with no luck. Ground or tower even tried on 121,5 so at least in Munich they can . We were holding behind the Air Canada and eventually got cleared to taxi around them. I tried to wave and tap my headset as a signal to check comms, don't know if it they even saw, but shortly after they did check-in with tower. It might have also been the fact that some pesky regional jet got to cut in front of them that made them wonder what was up, or just sheer coincidence.
Intrance is online now  
Old 2nd Sep 2018, 12:16
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 202
In my active ATC days (unfortunately many years past now) grabbing the Guard (121.5/243.0) handset and transmitting to aircraft on the ground or in the circuit was a regular, but infrequent occurrence which usually "saved the day", if not the occasional life. As a result, those towers for which I have raised Operational requirements and technical specs in the past 15 years as a consultant, have easily accessible guard TX/Rx facilities.

Not my spec, but even Bonriki AFIS can by one touch on the screen TX on 121.5 and the RX monitor is always on and when the vendor finally gets around to the installation, Cassidy will have the same capability,

MJG
mgahan is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2018, 21:29
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Northampton
Age: 63
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by AerocatS2A View Post
Well, as I say, Iíve been sitting next to someone who has done the very same thing. Normally a very good operator, but his brain just did something automatically without thought. The most dangerous thought a pilot can have is that there is a category of errors so fundamentally basic that he could never make one. I have had an FO select flap to zero instead of the gear up. He never thought it would be an error he could possibly make, and yet he made it.
To remove the 'high and mighty' hat for a moment, I have to confess my darkest sins. Which include the fact that I once did exactly the same thing. Therefore, I get where you are coming from. (mea culpa, etc.). No harm done, but I got some choice words aimed at me for that one. Very choice words.
Rabski is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2018, 21:42
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 2,759
Yeah. The guy who swapped the radios with me was the Capt and he wasn't happy with himself.

We actually had a company policy at the time to have both radios tuned to the appropriate frequency when in the terminal area (starting with Approach or Ground). En route we'd have the second one on 121.5 or company if required. So he managed to switch both radios automatically without thinking about it.
AerocatS2A is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2018, 02:01
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: US
Age: 61
Posts: 399
The Airbus radio panel is far more capable than the Boeing panel. It’s also far easier to screw up!
Sailvi767 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.