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Someone stole a Q400 from Seattle?

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Someone stole a Q400 from Seattle?

Old 18th Aug 2018, 13:51
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Toryu View Post
Ok, I'll spell it out for you one more time - in color:
Suicidal people don't think or act rationally, so stop putting the blame-game onto him like he was a rationally thinking person.
Merely being suicidal and acting irrationally doesn't absolve someone from responsibility as if it equates to being insane or having a severe, low-functioning IQ level that prevents them from knowing right from wrong or understanding the consequences of their actions. People who commit crimes while acting irrationally are blamed and held accountable for their irrational acts in courts and other walks of life every day, including those motivated by suicide. In a botched attempt to kill oneself that harms others through recklessness or creating a hazard, the person attempting/creating isn't given a free pass. They'll be blamed/charged/held accountable even in cases of diminished capacity where impulses got the better of them if they knew what they were doing was wrong or knew it posed a hazard to others.

While you may not agree, and erroneously believe that awareness-of and ability to make alternative of choices automatically ceases to exist in all suicidal people and are therefore blameless, that's the way it is. There's no free pass for all decisions one makes or their consequences just because they expressed the intent to not hurt anyone else.

From his communication with ATC there's no question he was aware what he had done/was doing was wrong (says guys like him should go to prison), that it was dangerous with the potential to harm others (said he didn't want to, showing recognition that it could), and that there would be consequences for his actions (again prison, potentially hurting someone, get shot down, get roughed up, negatively affecting loved ones, etc etc). He was obviously high-functioning enough to hold a job, get married, go to college, travel the world, and narrate videos that show no sign of a severely low IQ level.

He may have been troubled, unstable, depressed, pissed-off at life, or whatever it was that caused him to be suicidal, but as to the question of him knowing he had other choices with regards to method those reasons are irrelevant. There many, many methods that don’t involve committing a series of federal crimes, creating enormous hazards to others, and destroying millions of dollars worth or property. He was aware of those other choices, and the act itself and all his communication points to him having consciously made the reckless and criminal choices he did instead. He wanted to joyride awhile in an airplane and then try his hand at some aerobatics I supposed to see if real life was like his games over 70 minutes while refusing continuous offers for help along the way, then go out with a bang.

If he had somehow survived he’d be facing a long stretch in Federal prison once it was established he knew what he was doing was wrong and made those choices anyway, no matter how bad or irrational it was to do so. Being suicidal doesn't give one the right to commit crimes, recklessly endanger others, or destroy millions of dollars worth of property. Successfully killing oneself while doing all the aforementioned doesn't magically earn them a pardon.
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 14:21
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Concours77 View Post
Heads up only, I won’t post the details here.. There is what seems to be a theory elsewhere that is erm, remarkable. It seems to me that this official story might bear some fruit if NTSB published a more complete report. Forewarned is forearmed. This occurrence is (thankfully) a very rare one, but wouidn’t more data arm the professionals on the ramp with better tools to foreclose repetition? Nothing more to be gained? Who decided that? Shouldn't Aviation professionals make that call?


The FBI will obviously be the lead Agency as the incident was a purposeful act involving a string of Federal crimes being committed. The NTSB investigators will of course be at the FBI's disposal to investigate aviation-related matters and aviation tech issues to whatever extent is necessary for the over-riding and ongoing criminal investigation. As law enforcement, the FBI has investigative powers that Agencies like the NTSB don't have when it comes to interviewing people who might be associated with the perpetrator, establishing who was what and where when it was it was happening, and can dig into backgrounds and records to try and establish or eliminate motive far more deeply than the NTSB can. When the investigation is underway and it becomes established what happened that day undoubtedly as lapses in security are found recommendations and input will be asked-for from those familiar with logistics of how it could be handled.

The lack of an NTSB final report itself is meaningless. Even within their domain NTSB only makes recommendations that are not legally mandated, nor are they set up for criminal investigations or to produce findings with respect to criminal acts. The aircraft accident investigation is still there, but just a small part of a much larger and encompassing criminal one being conducted by the FBI who aren't going to only want to know "what happened" and ways to prevent it from happening again, but why he did it as well.

"Why he did it" questions also directly pertain to preventing a future occurrence, and to this end many be questions will be asked and much records-digging conducted re his finances, marital problems/extramarital affairs, substance abuse, history of mental health going back as far as they can, career underachievement/job satisfaction, family relationships, what was going on with his college, others sources of stress, his video game obsession, his approaching 30th birthday, etc etc etc. Anything relating to whatever he said over the radio will certainly be looked-at, especially his side comments about his employment/employer as it shouldn't be forgotten that the greatest damage he did was to his own company, and he commented about wages, "higher-ups taking notice" of what he was doing, and a perceived lack of opportunity for advancement. He may have tried to sound like he was joking, but something made him think of them.

Plus, his wife and family won't be able to just issue a public statement like they have and then clam-up when it's FBI investigators doing the asking in the course of their investigation. The FBI can compel answers if they aren't forthcoming during interviews. As one who would normally know him best in a healthy relationship, his wife will naturally be the focus of much questioning, and undoubtedly it was noticed that in the course of his conversations with ATC mentioning "those who love me" he failed to specifically mention her.

As a general rule it's not a great idea for the NTSB to publicly publish all the ways security was/could be breached and an aircraft successfully stolen from the middle of a busy airport like SeaTac. Inside job or not, air carrier-related common strategy and security measures aren't normally for public consumption. The accident wasn't a result of mechanical issues, weather, or a breakdown of CRM in the cockpit, it was the result of someone purposely committing numerous crimes. Any aircraft accident where they know (like this one) or it's revealed during an NTSB/FAA investigation that a crime may have contributed, it becomes the FBI's domain.

Last edited by PukinDog; 18th Aug 2018 at 15:17.
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 14:35
  #183 (permalink)  

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After he (presumably) disconnect the tug, how did he get back on board? Does this model have built-in air stairs, or would the re-entry to the cockpit require a ladder which he then kicked away before closing whichever entry point to the aircraft? Just curious....
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 18:18
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ripline View Post
After he (presumably) disconnect the tug, how did he get back on board? Does this model have built-in air stairs, or would the re-entry to the cockpit require a ladder which he then kicked away before closing whichever entry point to the aircraft? Just curious....
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 22:39
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by oscar zoroaster View Post
At the end, did he try to safely land, intentionally crash into land (suicide), run out of fuel? Just curious if we know what his final state of mind and intentions were
Reporting wreckage and human remains... did he have a crash site in mind or did he just want to not drown?

there is no way to make this less mysterious without more data. Joy ride, some acro, banter with center and a face plant.

end of.
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 22:41
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by oscar zoroaster View Post
At the end, did he try to safely land, intentionally crash into land (suicide), run out of fuel? Just curious if we know what his final state of mind and intentions were
Or did one of the loops cause the aircraft to break?
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 22:52
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mnttech View Post
Or did one of the loops cause the aircraft to break?
I have not heard the final communications with ATC. He had been fairly verbal and transparent during the flight portions which were released early on.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 02:00
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aeromech32254 View Post
I was an airline mechanic for 19 years and have been taxi qualified in many different models of Fokker, Boeing, and Airbus. These aircraft do not have door locks, wheel locks, or ignition keys/locks. The security is a big fence, cameras, roving patrols, airport workers, etc. This guys job was moving aircraft around for parking, etc. Even if they had locks, he'd have the key.

I've thought several times that if I was willing to kill myself, there would be nothing preventing me from taking one of these airliners and taking off. Many times I've done high speed taxis on the runway (at night) to troubleshoot pilot write-ups for things like nose wheel shimmy.. There would always be two mechanics driving the plane but that was just for company rules. Just about on any given night I could have taken a plane. There's no way to prevent this. Prevention starts by the job interview and 10 year background check. Then years of service as well as classroom training. At that point if a guy goes nuts you can't place blame on anyone except him.
This is the point often made to show how silly the security theater with which we indulge ourselves with has become. In a practical sense, there just isn't any way to operate a busy airport without there being people around who can cause a lot of trouble if they pop a few mental rivets. The objective should be to tighten that aspect of the process. Patrick Smith pointed out how ridiculous it was to have a soon-to-be-at-work pilot give up his spork during a shake down while the aircraft custodians had more or less a free run of the ramp and aircraft.

-drl
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 15:25
  #189 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
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how ridiculous it was to have a soon-to-be-at-work pilot give up his spork

As a Line Maintenance Lead Mechanic in uniform in MCO post 911, I was forced by security to either give up my ratchet or return it to my car (which I did). Mechanics need tools, right?

The strange thing is that every night maintenance employees would park at a satellite lot and the company van would pick us up. In that case we could bring all the tools, knives, etc we wanted because we would drive up to a security gate and just show our badges. They never checked inside
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 17:20
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aerobat77 View Post
at an international airport

-you would get every attention when you startup the engines without any startup clearance and with no flightplan of this aircraft in the system

- you would surely trigger a full blown alert when you start to taxi an aircraft without radio communication to ground , without startup and taxi clearance and without any flightplan issued .

i,m wondering how he made it to takeoff position on the runway ??? i would expect you would be blocked with e.g a fire truck to reach the runway in such a case
Startup clearance is not required at US airports. They use gate hold procedures, when required. In any case, I don't believe that startup clearance is a mechanism designed to thwart the theft of aircraft. I believe it is a mechanism designed to avoid ground congestion, conserve fuel to avoid ground turnbacks due to insufficient fuel, limit unnecessary noise, prevent baggage and fueling operations from being impeded, etc. Also, I seriously doubt that the fire brigade has trained on a procedure for stopping aircraft. The airport is not Hollywood. It is a professional workplace. There have been umpteen million legitimate airport movements worldwide for every one of these type events. You cannot plan for every possibility. To do so, would be ever more expensive and cumbersome. To dream up solutions for this highly-specific and rarely-occurring problem is easy. To come up with solutions for the broader issue, mental health, is much tougher -- but the payoff would be much higher.

Last edited by cthruit; 20th Aug 2018 at 18:42.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 17:40
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not convinced that his intention was to kill himself at the time he made the decision to take the aircraft. He may have made the decision inflight, as the seriousness of his action fully dawned on him. One of the characteristics of many types of personality disorders is poor impulse control. These people get an idea in their head that becomes overpowering and they find themselves unable to stop, even though they are dimly aware of the possible consequences. Many prescription medications can also disrupt normal thought processes and lead to poor impulse control and suicidal ideation. I think that this MAY be the issue behind many of the headlines of late (Robin Williams? Anthony Bourdain? Mass shootings?) The percentage of Americans who regularly take some type of psychotropic drug is staggering (and increasing). According to a recent article in The Washington Post, "more than a third of American adults take prescription drugs linked to depression."

Last edited by cthruit; 20th Aug 2018 at 18:56.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 18:52
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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I have some sympathy for him when he acknowledges that he's looking at life in jail - try to recover the situation, land the aircraft in one piece and a lifetime in jail is your reward - not much incentive to bring the aircraft back. Sadly, I guess it has to be that way to stop anyone else.

I've not flown a Q400 myself, but based on comments from those who have, could it be this guy was the only person to ever enjoy flying one? Although poorly executed, his barrel roll was flown with gusto.

Last edited by ZeBedie; 20th Aug 2018 at 20:23.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 20:14
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cthruit View Post
Startup clearance is not required at US airports. They use gate hold procedures, when required.
Not true in general. Pushback and start clearances are required at many US airports. For example, at LAX I've received clearance for pushback, but hold start until some other aircraft cleared...
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 20:41
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Intruder View Post
Not true in general. Pushback and start clearances are required at many US airports. For example, at LAX I've received clearance for pushback, but hold start until some other aircraft cleared...
Start clearances are a rarity in the US. Judging from the size of the cargo ramp in question, I am virtually certain that there would be no one to issue a start clearance or a pushback clearance there. The first interaction the aircraft would have with any type of required control is Ground on the movement area, and it's several plane lengths from where the ramp ends and movement area begins, to the runway; leaving too little time for anyone to react after eyebrows being raised. Bottom line, there's nothing odd looking here.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 20:53
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Intruder View Post
Not true in general. Pushback and start clearances are required at many US airports. For example, at LAX I've received clearance for pushback, but hold start until some other aircraft cleared...
A specific engine start clearance must be received before the engines may be started at all of the major airports to which I fly outside the US. Startup clearance, per se, is not required at US airports. It is permissible to start the engines and run them at idle power without receiving an ATC clearance. Mechanics do it all the time. To move the aircraft may or may not require ATC permission, depending on the area. Some apron areas are uncontrolled, or are unofficially controlled by non-ATC entities. At ORD, the 6th busiest airport in the world, the cargo ramp from which I operate is uncontrolled -- strictly self-announce like UNICOM at a little airport. It was formerly controlled by UPS, but they no longer do so. I don't know why they stopped -- maybe a liability concern. We push back and start engines there without any clearance from anyone (of course, we have our ATC route clearance). Without any clearances from anyone, we taxi to and hold short of the taxiway and contact ground control. If an airport has gate hold procedures in effect, then we must obtain permission beforehand, even in an uncontrolled area. My domicile is LAX. We must request pushback clearance there from ground control because we are pushing back onto a taxiway controlled by them. We do not request clearance to start engines because it is not required. Of course, if ATC were to request that we not start engines due to a light aircraft taxiing behind, we would comply. But at most (all?) big airports outside the USA, you must request an engine start clearance along with a pushback clearance. You will get cleared for both at the same time or you will get cleared for one, and later, the other.

Last edited by cthruit; 20th Aug 2018 at 22:11.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 21:40
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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According to one of the pilots heard on ground control frequency, the DHC-8 came out of Cargo 1, which is adjacent to the threshold of 16L. Very, very short taxi time to 16C, from where he took off. According to my charts, Cargo 1 is controlled by 126.87, which has everything north of taxiway N. That is a lot of apron area (airplanes) to control. It is essentially one half of the passenger terminal and almost all of the cargo areas. Very easy to see how a DHC-8 all the way at the opposite end of where the majority of your movements are occurring could slip out undetected by the ramp controller. And, for all we know, the ramp controller may have attempted to contact him on 126.87. Or the ramp controller may have picked up the phone and informed ground control of the errant aircraft. Not that there was much time to do anything about it.

Last edited by cthruit; 20th Aug 2018 at 21:57.
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 15:04
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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Stolen Airplanes is not a new thing.


https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...ox=1534875608A
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 16:54
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Stolen Airplanes is not a new thing.
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...ox=1534875608A
Indeed they are not. A Marine mechanic stole an A-4 Skyhawk and took it for a joyride. Safely landed it also, with no injuries or damage done, other than to his career. EDIT: This adventure killed his military career, but his civilian aviation career is very notable.

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/th...awk-1745015819

Last edited by KenV; 22nd Aug 2018 at 17:45.
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 17:28
  #199 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KenV View Post
A Marine mechanic stole an A-4 Skyhawk and took if for a joyride. Safely landed it also, with no injuries or damage done, other than to his career.

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/th...awk-1745015819
It doesn't seem to have done his career much harm either:
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