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Someone stole a Q400 from Seattle?

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Someone stole a Q400 from Seattle?

Old 14th Aug 2018, 03:22
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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The guy stole an airplane, likely with suicide on his mind, a stern talking to wouldn’t have done a thing to change his mind.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 03:40
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Some of the questions posed on this thread are addressed in this Seattle Times article:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/we-were-all-screaming-oh-my-god%e2%80%8a-how-the-horizon-air-theft-and-crash-unfolded/?utm_source=marketingcloud&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Mor ning+Brief+8-13-13_8_13_2018&utm_term=Active%20subscriber

As has been noted, the area where the aircraft was parked is quite near the departure area at the north end of SeaTac - from the point he started moving until he took off was likely only a couple minutes (especially since he took off without any clearance, in front of another departing aircraft). I'm mildly impressed that ATC even noticed he was there prior to his taking off.

BTW, the earlier 5 minute F-15 response time posted earlier (that was repeatedly attacked) appears to have been pretty reasonable:
About 130 miles south of Sea-Tac, two F-15C jets of 142nd Fighter Wing, on alert round-the-clock to defend an area between Northern California and the San Juan Islands, took off.

Armed with missiles and a six-barrel cannon, and capable of flying at two-and-a-half times the speed of sound, the planes closed most of the distance to Sea-Tac in four minutes, creating a sonic boom on their way. They were ordered, the North American Aerospace Defense Command said, to try to direct the plane over the Pacific Ocean.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 04:45
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
The guy stole an airplane, likely with suicide on his mind, a stern talking to wouldn’t have done a thing to change his mind.
Likely not. But playing the hero talking the guy off the ledge didn’t work either.

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Old 14th Aug 2018, 05:38
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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So I assume that unaccompanied ground staff are now a thing of the past and ALL ground staff must now go through more rigorous security checks and only be permitted to the Apron in pairs, we could call it the ‘two on the apron rule’.......... right?
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 05:40
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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Antagonising the guy also may have made things worse.. What if he then decided to take out the Control Tower with him!
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 05:42
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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and please let us not forget that this is not a suicidal pilot story

he never was a pilot .

( before we step into a debate of mental health of pilots )
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 06:44
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aerobat77 View Post
and please let us not forget that this is not a suicidal pilot story

he never was a pilot .

( before we step into a debate of mental health of pilots )
point well taken.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 10:06
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Concours77 View Post
I am no psychologist. This is supposition only. ATC was exemplary, and there is no reason to suggest another and different approach to convince the pilot to attempt a landing. He did good. But he was out of character, ATC needs to be direct and authoritative, it is in the job description.

So. The pilot is described as outgoing, smart, and compassionate. In the scheme of things, we give what we get, so any “personality” can be simply the result of what we want back from people. A “compliant”, and pleasing/pleasant person might not be amenable to soft understanding response from authority. ATC is authority, and morphing from authority into empathetic “buddy” might be the opposite of what is needed. People pleasers are generally subject to compliance, it gets learned into the dynamic.

“I am going to give you a heading, you need to comply, and get that aircraft configured.” “NOW!!...” “Beebo” sounds like a bit of a spoiled brat. Sweet nothings don’t work on such a person. He may have been “placated” all his life. It is clear that suicidal or not, he needed some talking to, by an authority, not a buddy.

imo
I'm not sure that going Full Metal Jacket on him, with something like "what is your major malfunction numbnuts?" would have been the best course of action. That approach proved costly for Gunnery Sergeant Hartman in the movie! The point is that this guy was effectively holding a weapon to the controller's head. He needed to be calmed down in order to get him to be compliant, not agitated with authoritarian commands. I think the softly softly approach in these circumstances is almost instinctive, and I think the outcome was the best that could be expected. It certainly could have been a helluva lot worse. But yes, the controller did an excellent job.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 10:22
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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I've been following this thread from post to post but perhaps I have missed something. Does anyone know why the aircraft actually crashed? I mean, was he conducting another aerobatic manoeuvre that, like his 'barrel roll', fell apart in execution and this time had no means of escape? Or was it a deliberate CFIT? I'm guessing this is what the accident investigation will be attempting to determine. Has anyone heard if the FDR and CVR have been recovered?
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 10:30
  #150 (permalink)  
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Part of the recorded radio conversation from 'Rich'

" I think I'm gonna try to do a barrel roll, and if that goes good, I'm just gonna nosedown and call it a night.”
Make of that what you will. No doubt the recorders, if they are viable, will reveal what actually happened.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 10:31
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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flightglobal.com/news/articles/fbi-recovers-recorders-from-crashed-horizon-q400-451092/

'The Federal Bureau of Investigation has recovered the flight data recorder and "components" of the cockpit voice recorder from the wreckage of a stolen Horizon Air Bombardier Q400 that crashed outside Seattle on 10 August.'

'The FBI does not specify the condition of the cockpit voice or cockpit data recorders, both of which are now with the National Transportation Safety Board for processing, it says.'
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 11:03
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aerobat77 View Post

other thing : is a q400 able to start from battery only or do you need an apu running or a gpu connected first ????

It can start from the battery as long as there's enough juice and you would need one engine completely stabilized before starting the other one. Generally battery start on a Q400 requires to go through a special check list and the procedure is not really recommended (not that this guy cared, just saying)
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 12:11
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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thanx martin ! another question : to be able for radio communication you have to engage the avionicd , correct ?

just trying to figure out how much time he needed minimum to start both engines , connect the generators and engage avionics before he was able to taxi out
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 12:12
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lord Farringdon View Post
I've been following this thread from post to post but perhaps I have missed something. Does anyone know why the aircraft actually crashed? I mean, was he conducting another aerobatic manoeuvre that, like his 'barrel roll', fell apart in execution and this time had no means of escape? Or was it a deliberate CFIT? I'm guessing this is what the accident investigation will be attempting to determine. Has anyone heard if the FDR and CVR have been recovered?
He said he was losing an engine. Did he run out of fuel?
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 12:40
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aerobat77 View Post
and please let us not forget that this is not a suicidal pilot story

he never was a pilot .

( before we step into a debate of mental health of pilots )
A pilot is a person who operates the flying controls of an aircraft. Semantics but not wrong to call him a pilot.

If you steal a car but don't have a driving licence you are still the "driver".
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 13:11
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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fargoo... nice ... but like said previously not to be confused with the group of people who officially operate the flight controls of an aircraft as a profession for a living .

....before somebody takes this event to call for more menthal health checks on this group of people...
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 13:46
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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I’m doing some DIY woodworking this afternoon but I don’t think I would ever describe myself as a “carpenter”

(Shorter Oxford English Dictionary - A craftsman in woodwork esp. of rough solid kinds as in house or shipbuilding..)

As aerobat says let’s not use this accident as an excuse to increase mental health checks on pilots...the victim here was a ground agent trying to pilot/fly an aircraft.

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Old 14th Aug 2018, 14:59
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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Just a quick question, people.
What will happen as far as the insurance is concerned ? All null & void as no qualified pilot in command,-
or how can the insurers weasel their way out of it.
Do aircraft that are hijacked still have insurance cover ??
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 15:08
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I believe the last radio call from the aircraft mentioned "I feel like one of my engines is going out or something..." and in several prior transmissions he noted the fuel was dropping rapidly:

Rich: I’m down to 21 hundred, I started like 30 something.

ATC: Rich you said you had 2,100 pounds of fuel left?

And later:

Rich: Yeah I don’t know what the burnage... burnout... is like on take-off, but yeah it’s burned quite a bit faster than I expected.

It would seem likely he ran out fuel? From prior PPRuNe posts,GY it seems the Q400 fuel burn rate was noted to be 1800lbs/hr holding and 2700lbs/hr margin rate. I believe the stolen aircraft was in the air for at least an hour, which lines up with the numbers in the radio transmissions.

- GY
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 16:07
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Originally Posted by aerobat77 View Post
...not to be confused with the group of people who officially operate the flight controls of an aircraft as a profession for a living...
...or the group of people who officially operate the flight controls of an aircraft just for the fun of it, or to get themselves places. Not all licenses are ATP or Commercial.

But we get the point.
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