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Someone stole a Q400 from Seattle?

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Someone stole a Q400 from Seattle?

Old 14th Aug 2018, 18:36
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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The crash site didn't seem like a plane that ran out of fuel... quite a post-impact fire.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 19:01
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RobertS975 View Post
The crash site didn't seem like a plane that ran out of fuel... quite a post-impact fire.
Perhaps what fuel was left ignited the heavily forested (and flammable) crash site? Do they have the pilot’s remains? I think toxicology May play a part in the investigation.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 20:00
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RobertS975 View Post
The crash site didn't seem like a plane that ran out of fuel... quite a post-impact fire.
It's been VERY dry here in the Puget Sound area, until we had rain on Saturday (post episode). It wouldn't take much to start a fire in that area with whatever fuel remained, or even just hot engine parts.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 21:21
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lord Farringdon View Post
I'm not sure that going Full Metal Jacket on him, with something like "what is your major malfunction numbnuts?" would have been the best course of action. That approach proved costly for Gunnery Sergeant Hartman in the movie! The point is that this guy was effectively holding a weapon to the controller's head. He needed to be calmed down in order to get him to be compliant, not agitated with authoritarian commands. I think the softly softly approach in these circumstances is almost instinctive, and I think the outcome was the best that could be expected. It certainly could have been a helluva lot worse. But yes, the controller did an excellent job.
Who knows what would have worked in this type of situation. Hindsight is truly golden. The guys thinking could have turned on a dime and next thing we've got half of downtown looking like a bad B movie.
I can't imagine being that ATC guy trying to think of the right words to say to someone who's mind has flipped and who at any second could have pulled the pin through a misplaced turn of the yoke with fuel running out. But it does seem to be the common approach to use gentle nurturing vocabulary in these situations.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 22:24
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aerobat77 View Post
thanx martin ! another question : to be able for radio communication you have to engage the avionicd , correct ?

just trying to figure out how much time he needed minimum to start both engines , connect the generators and engage avionics before he was able to taxi out
radios are rather simple on the q400 - you turn the knob and it's on, same goes for all the displays and everything.. If someone's intention is to steal the plane and crash it, I doubt they will follow normal flow and checklists - with this in mind, you could probably get it airborne within 5 minutes from cold and dark.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 23:32
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Martin_123 View Post
radios are rather simple on the q400 - you turn the knob and it's on, same goes for all the displays and everything.. If someone's intention is to steal the plane and crash it, I doubt they will follow normal flow and checklists - with this in mind, you could probably get it airborne within 5 minutes from cold and dark.
Longest thing with avionics is aligning AHARS or IRS for Nav and FMS setting for a flight plan.. If you are not bothered with that, the time it takes the screens to come up (although lots of info does not come up on the screens until the former items have run their alignment). There is of course... those standby instruments that of course do not need much time to warm up.
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 09:15
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wheels_down View Post
...... implode......


That word doesn’t mean what you think it does.

I know what you are implying but that’s not the word you should be using.
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 09:47
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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Basically, when he got to the aircraft it may well have been in a powered up state anyway. you need power for stuff like connecting laptops to test systems on the Q400. It's a DC airplane. Nothing out of he ordinary to start the APU to connect DC generator to disconnect the GPU to move the aircraft. Connect Tug, disconnect park brake then move aircraft. Brakes on in Tug, get out put park brake on in aircraft then go out and move tug away. Once inside, close door and startin gis pretty easy. The FADEC means a start doesn't really require Condition levers to move at the right point, etc. If it had flown in, it would have had an hour's fuel plus final reserve. maybe 1000-1200lbs on board? maybe a bit less if the APU had run a while.. It wouldn't have been rocket science to get one up and running to fly. Tower would probably have been the last frequency on the ARCDU anyway.

All in all a real shame in every way. Mental Health is the big topic of the day, and so much more needs to be done in all parts of society to catch and help those who suffer. RIP Rich.
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 14:21
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The one thing I'm surprised at by reading this thread, is how the viewpoints of many differ in so many ways. Obviously, this chap was considerably disturbed by something in his life, that significantly impaired normal thinking. It doesn't mean however, that because he was thinking irrationally, that he wasn't capable of carrying out rational tasks. For example, he got to the airport without incident (we assume).

In accessing the aircraft, for which he had the requisite permitted company clearance, and with the job he had, he would have been familiar with at least the basic operations of the Q400, and most definitely would have been familiar with the cockpit layout and "what bits do what".

I agree that an airline pilot type-rated on the Q400, is a very professional post. I disagree that only a fully-trained, fully-qualified, type-rated person is capable in any capacity to get a Q400, or any commercial aircraft airborne.

Here's where I'm likely to draw comments taking my post out of context.... regardless of aircraft type, and the complexities of electronic systems - the basic principles of flight remain the same.
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 17:13
  #170 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by diffident View Post
The one thing I'm surprised at by reading this thread, is how the viewpoints of many differ in so many ways. Obviously, this chap was considerably disturbed by something in his life, that significantly impaired normal thinking. It doesn't mean however, that because he was thinking irrationally, that he wasn't capable of carrying out rational tasks. For example, he got to the airport without incident (we assume).

In accessing the aircraft, for which he had the requisite permitted company clearance, and with the job he had, he would have been familiar with at least the basic operations of the Q400, and most definitely would have been familiar with the cockpit layout and "what bits do what".

I agree that an airline pilot type-rated on the Q400, is a very professional post. I disagree that only a fully-trained, fully-qualified, type-rated person is capable in any capacity to get a Q400, or any commercial aircraft airborne.

Here's where I'm likely to draw comments taking my post out of context.... regardless of aircraft type, and the complexities of electronic systems - the basic principles of flight remain the same.
I too believe that a low experience "pilot" could get a Dash 8 airborne, if they'd done their homework. Back in my airline days, I was a 250 hour 172 pilot (my role at the airline was not as a pilot). However, I did have casual use of the DC-8-63 full motion simulator. By reading the flight manual, I was able to teach myself to fly the sim. I never had any dual, nor a co pilot, it was all solo, at night, and requiring an approach to "find" the runway for landing. I never had any problem returning the "aircraft" to the button of the runway for it's next use. If I could do it, I'm sure anyone else could too, considering that there is much more easily available simulation available now then was ever imagined 35 years ago...
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Old 17th Aug 2018, 17:17
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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NTSB Preliminary Report, they indicate that they will not open a docket or publish a final report:

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

National Transportation Safety Board Aviation Accident Preliminary Report

Location: Steilacoom, WA Accident Number: WPR18FA220
Date & Time: 08/10/2018, 2043 PDT
Registration: N449QX
Aircraft: De Havilland DHC8
Injuries: 1 Fatal
Flight Conducted Under: Unknown

On August 10, 2018, about 2043 Pacific daylight time, a De Havilland DHC-8-402, N449QX, was destroyed when it impacted trees on Ketron Island, near Steilacoom, WA. The noncertificated pilot was fatally injured. The airplane was registered to Horizon Air Industries Inc. and operated by the individual as an unauthorized flight. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed in the area at the time of the accident, and no flight plan was filed. The airplane departed from the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, Seattle, Washington, about 1932 for an unknown destination. Horizon Air personnel reported that the individual was employed as a ground service agent and had access to the airplanes on the ramp. The investigation of this event is being conducted under the jurisdiction of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). The NTSB provided requested technical assistance to the FBI, and any material generated by the NTSB is under the control of the FBI. The NTSB does not plan to issue a report or open a public docket.

Aircraft and Owner/Operator Information Aircraft Make: De Havilland Registration: N449QX
Model/Series: DHC8 402
Aircraft Category: Airplane
Amateur Built: No
Operator: Operating Certificate(s) Held: Flag carrier (121)
Meteorological Information and Flight Plan Conditions at Accident Site: Visual Conditions
Condition of Light: Observation Facility, Elevation: KTIW, 292 ft msl
Observation Time: 2053 PDT
Distance from Accident Site: 8 Nautical Miles
Temperature/Dew Point: 18°C / 14°C
Lowest Cloud Condition:
Wind Speed/Gusts, Direction: 7 knots / , 240°
Lowest Ceiling:
Visibility: 10 Miles
Altimeter Setting: 29.98 inches Hg
Type of Flight Plan Filed: None
Departure Point: Seattle, WA (SEA)
Destination:
Wreckage and Impact Information Crew Injuries: 1 Fatal
Aircraft Damage: Destroyed
Passenger Injuries: N/A
Aircraft Fire: On-Ground
Ground Injuries: N/A
Aircraft Explosion: None
Total Injuries: 1 Fatal
Latitude, Longitude: 47.148056, -122.637500 (est)
Administrative Information Investigator In Charge (IIC): Debra J Eckrote
Additional Participating Persons:
Note: The NTSB traveled to the scene of this accident.
https://t.co/0Nk2UnXIYx
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 04:29
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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I'm pretty sure he did what he said he was going to do which was pull off the maneuver and then nose in and call it a night.
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 04:43
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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diffident,

Why do you think that as a baggage handler "...he would have been familiar with at least the basic operations of the Q400, and most definitely would have been familiar with the cockpit layout and "what bits do what""?
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 06:33
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Originally Posted by pattern_is_full View Post
...or the group of people who officially operate the flight controls of an aircraft just for the fun of it, or to get themselves places. Not all licenses are ATP or Commercial.

But we get the point.
A 'private pilot' is only a pilot when they are flying an aircraft, whereas pilots in a general sense are professionals who fly in order to deliver a service. It's a title with respect to someone's career, I hope you can agree that it would be fairly flawed to refer to oneself as a pilot day in day out based solely on the practice of flying a Cessna every other weekend.
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 06:53
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KKoran View Post
diffident,

Why do you think that as a baggage handler "...he would have been familiar with at least the basic operations of the Q400, and most definitely would have been familiar with the cockpit layout and "what bits do what""?
"Russell worked as a member of Horizon’s tow team, Christenson said, and helped handle baggage for the airline.

Two-person tow teams are responsible for moving airplanes on the tarmac. One person drives a tow tug, pulling the plane. The other communicates with the tower from inside the airplane’s cockpit and can apply the plane’s brakes in an emergency, Christenson said.

Tow teams are trained how to use some airplane systems such as the auxiliary power unit, hydraulics and radios, said Christenson, who did not know Russell well."

from the Seattle Times, August 11
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 11:26
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KKoran View Post
Why do you think that as a baggage handler "...he would have been familiar with at least the basic operations of the Q400, and most definitely would have been familiar with the cockpit layout and "what bits do what""?
He was unable to read-off his altitude or speed to ATC... that in itself dispels this wacky notion that was well prepared, with lots of home simulator time. No NTSB report to come... very convenient. The whole thing is a fairytale.
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 12:21
  #177 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by keeprighton1974 View Post
No NTSB report to come... very convenient.
Perhaps the NTSB have already provided all the information that they are ever likely to obtain about this event, and nothing more would be gained from the expense and effort of a detailed investigation. I don't think that the NTSB react to "convenience" one way or the other....
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 14:37
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Originally Posted by Pilot DAR View Post
Perhaps the NTSB have already provided all the information that they are ever likely to obtain about this event, and nothing more would be gained from the expense and effort of a detailed investigation. I don't think that the NTSB react to "convenience" one way or the other....
Heads up only, I won’t post the details here.. There is what seems to be a theory elsewhere that is erm, remarkable. It seems to me that this official story might bear some fruit if NTSB published a more complete report. Forewarned is forearmed. This occurrence is (thankfully) a very rare one, but wouidn’t more data arm the professionals on the ramp with better tools to foreclose repetition? Nothing more to be gained? Who decided that? Shouldn't Aviation professionals make that call?

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Old 18th Aug 2018, 14:43
  #179 (permalink)  
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The investigation of this event is being conducted under the jurisdiction of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). The NTSB provided requested technical assistance to the FBI, and any material generated by the NTSB is under the control of the FBI. The NTSB does not plan to issue a report or open a public docket.
Copied from Post #172. Seems that the FBI decides what is released publicly in this case, not the NTSB.
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 14:51
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Originally Posted by Toryu View Post
Ok, I'll spell it out for you one more time - in color:
Suicidal people don't think or act rationally, so stop putting the blame-game onto him like he was a rationally thinking person.
Merely being suicidal and acting irrationally doesn't absolve someone from responsibility as if it equates to being insane or having a severe, low-functioning IQ level that prevents them from knowing right from wrong or understanding the consequences of their actions. People who commit crimes while acting irrationally are blamed and held accountable for their irrational acts in courts and other walks of life every day, including those motivated by suicide. In a botched attempt to kill oneself that harms others through recklessness or creating a hazard, the person attempting/creating isn't given a free pass. They'll be blamed/charged/held accountable even in cases of diminished capacity where impulses got the better of them if they knew what they were doing was wrong or knew it posed a hazard to others.

While you may not agree, and erroneously believe that awareness-of and ability to make alternative of choices automatically ceases to exist in all suicidal people and are therefore blameless, that's the way it is. There's no free pass for all decisions one makes or their consequences just because they expressed the intent to not hurt anyone else.

From his communication with ATC there's no question he was aware what he had done/was doing was wrong (says guys like him should go to prison), that it was dangerous with the potential to harm others (said he didn't want to, showing recognition that it could), and that there would be consequences for his actions (again prison, potentially hurting someone, get shot down, get roughed up, negatively affecting loved ones, etc etc). He was obviously high-functioning enough to hold a job, get married, go to college, travel the world, and narrate videos that show no sign of a severely low IQ level.

He may have been troubled, unstable, depressed, pissed-off at life, or whatever it was that caused him to be suicidal, but as to the question of him knowing he had other choices with regards to method those reasons are irrelevant. There many, many methods that don’t involve committing a series of federal crimes, creating enormous hazards to others, and destroying millions of dollars worth or property. He was aware of those other choices, and the act itself and all his communication points to him having consciously made the reckless and criminal choices he did instead. He wanted to joyride awhile in an airplane and then try his hand at some aerobatics I supposed to see if real life was like his games over 70 minutes while refusing continuous offers for help along the way, then go out with a bang.

If he had somehow survived he’d be facing a long stretch in Federal prison once it was established he knew what he was doing was wrong and made those choices anyway, no matter how bad or irrational it was to do so. Being suicidal doesn't give one the right to commit crimes, recklessly endanger others, or destroy millions of dollars worth of property. Successfully killing oneself while doing all the aforementioned doesn't magically earn them a pardon.
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