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Irish airspace and Brexit

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Irish airspace and Brexit

Old 20th Jul 2018, 07:20
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Irish airspace and Brexit

I've searched but couldn't find a thread on the above.
Ireland's Taoiseach has said UK rights to fly through Irish airspace could be withdrawn.

[QUOTE][/This thought occurred to me when I saw the contents of a speech made by the Irish Taoiseach on Wednesday (18th July). Leo Varadkar said that London should not be surprised if Dublin withheld Irish airspace from British commercial aircraft in the event of a hard border emerging between the two parts of Ireland in the wake of Britain departing the EU. Closing airspace in a time of peace violates aviation treaties of which both Ireland and Britain are signatories. But no matter.QUOTE]
https://brexitcentral.com/dublins-th...-brinkmanship/
Can he be serious?

If there is a discussion on this topic could the moderators move/delete this post
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 07:40
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As you say, there are international treaties (which are nothing to do with the EU) in place to facilitate aircraft of one country flying over other countries.

What I can see happening is that the UK would reciprocate, and withdraw all UK airspace to EI- registered aircraft, and flights to and from the Irish Republic. The UK wouldn't be affected too much, as transatlantic flighs would route south of Ireland, or across Northern Ireland, in UK airspace. Irish flights would only have the option of going west then south, or a long way north before turning east to Europe. That would massively increase their fuel costs and make the routes unprofitable.
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 07:56
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I'd have thought this might confuse things a bit for both sides https://www.ukirelandfab.eu still it's yet another "unforeseen" consequence of Brexit which the proponents of have no foresight for or solution to.

Oh and routing across NI really won't help you get to the Atlantic from Eng/Wales much, Donegal is in the way.
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 07:59
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Super VC10, it would cause far more trouble than you suggest.

Most obviously, that would wipe Ryanair from the UK map. So thatís Stansted decimated, Prestwick gone altogether for pax and massive holes at various UK airports. On a smaller scale Stobart Air couldnít operate its Southend routes, which is a decent chunk of the airportís throughout. Thatís a lot of direct jobs, not just the theoretical ones in Ryanair press releases.

Then you have another problem of third parties getting caught up - EI registered aircraft operating elsewhere eg Alitalia. Itís plausible other nations might reciprocate bans.
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 08:02
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Originally Posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
Can he be serious?
No, he's an idiot.

EI's route network::

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Old 20th Jul 2018, 08:09
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Please remember: if UK crashes out of the EU without a deal (no membership of EASA), no flights from UK operators could be conducted to Europe and probably the rest of the world (because current agreements are through EASA).
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 08:34
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This is just another politician spouting off about something he knows nothing about. I have taken part in briefings & negotiations with these people on a few occasions & have never failed to be overcome by their breathtaking ignorance !
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 08:58
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Firstly, if Mr Varadkar were to carry out his nasty threat, Ireland would come off much worse in the ensuing tit-for-tat. But on examining his demand, that after a no-deal Brexit, Irish fisherman continue to be allowed to fish UK waters, it becomes even more outrageous. Is there the remotest chance of U.K. fishermen being allowed to fish EU waters in this circumstance? It's worrying that Ireland should address its closest trading partner in such a belligerent and unreasonable way.
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 09:32
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He was talking about all the EU airspace, not just Irelandís.
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 09:43
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Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
Firstly, if Mr Varadkar were to carry out his nasty threat, Ireland would come off much worse in the ensuing tit-for-tat. But on examining his demand, that after a no-deal Brexit, Irish fisherman continue to be allowed to fish UK waters, it becomes even more outrageous. Is there the remotest chance of U.K. fishermen being allowed to fish EU waters in this circumstance? It's worrying that Ireland should address its closest trading partner in such a belligerent and unreasonable way.
Belligerent? Ireland? The country most likely to be hit hard by the reckless action of its neighbour. I think rather they have been planning ahead in launching one (and building others) super sized (the largest) ferry to sail around the UK....they are actually doing something real, something that can be seen and touched.
After all not one single person in the UK government knows what actually will happen to UK aviation or anything else.
The airline business needs to plan ahead and time is becoming perilously short.

Last edited by gcal; 20th Jul 2018 at 09:57.
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 11:15
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Its a storm in a teacup.
Everyone is posturing and threatening about their special interest.
In the end an acceptable deal will be made because that is in everyones best interest.
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 11:17
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Illegal as per the Chicago convention, no?
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 12:33
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Perhaps someone should send Mr Varadkar a copy of the International Air Services Transit Agreement that Ireland signed in 1957.
International Air Services Transit Agreement refers to a multilateral agreement drawn up in Chicago convention ie., the Convention on Civil Aviation, by the members of the of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). The agreement established for the first time the principle of automatic right of transit and of emergency landing. The agreement is known as two freedom agreement. Article one of the agreement states that each contracting state grants to the other contracting states the following freedoms of the air in respect of scheduled international air services :

(1) The privilege to fly across its territory without landing;

(2) The privilege to land for non-traffic purposes.

The second freedom grants the civil aircrafts the freedom to make non traffic landings in foreign countries for refueling or overhaul only, in foreign territory.



Last edited by BAengineer; 20th Jul 2018 at 13:59.
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 13:03
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better information here
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 13:15
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What Varadker said was based on how the EU might react to a crash-out Brexit, not what Dublin would "threaten" to do unilaterally. While Varadkar may have been mistaken in referring to overflights, the problem is much more real when it comes to flights into the UK from EU member states, including Ireland.

Ireland has more to lose than the UK from Brexit, and aviation provides a dramatic example of possible collateral damage. I looked at the Sun's despicable comments about Varadkar being an Airhead. At times I thing the appalling Trump has a point when he characterises the media as the enemy of the people. How many people in the UK are influenced by the poisonous and lying nonsense emanating from the Sun and other newspapers?
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 13:48
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This is why it is in everyone's interest to reach an agreement. The EU will not profit if the UK leaves without a deal.

https://nltimes.nl/2018/07/20/hard-b...lands-imf-says
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 14:21
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The UK media are conducting an unfocused propoganda war to keep the UK public on side.
Believe nothing that you read concerning BREXIT in UK media and you'll be fine.
Michel Barnier at a press-conference responded to May's Brexit proposal in a matter of fact way and the first question he receives is from The Guardian Reporter asking him if that was a polite way of saying No; that is a Journalist with an agenda.

This is all very Brass Eye/The Day Today stuff;
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 14:32
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Originally Posted by Super VC-10 View Post
As you say, there are international treaties (which are nothing to do with the EU) in place to facilitate aircraft of one country flying over other countries.

What I can see happening is that the UK would reciprocate, and withdraw all UK airspace to EI- registered aircraft, and flights to and from the Irish Republic. The UK wouldn't be affected too much, as transatlantic flighs would route south of Ireland, or across Northern Ireland, in UK airspace. Irish flights would only have the option of going west then south, or a long way north before turning east to Europe. That would massively increase their fuel costs and make the routes unprofitable.
"The UK wouldn't be affected much " ?

We should be very careful about bandying that sort of propaganda. If the UK tries to use airspace and ATC restrictions in an attempt to leverage weight in its negotiations, it would be wise to remember that only a comparatively small number of European airlines use Shanwick when you you look at total flight numbers. They can use Santa Maria or Kef if need be. 85-90% of uk airlines have to route through EU airspace. We'd be on a hiding to nothing if the Uk government tries that one!
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 14:38
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Does the RAF cover Irish airspace for potential hijacking situations?
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 14:45
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Originally Posted by The Ancient Geek View Post
Its a storm in a teacup.
Everyone is posturing and threatening about their special interest.
In the end an acceptable deal will be made because that is in everyones best interest.
Leo is not posturing. He is being mis-represented in the British Press as have a number of other Irish politicians over the last few months.Irish Politicians are afraid to open their traps on this topic.
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