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Old 16th Apr 2018, 10:33   #81 (permalink)  
 
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Rather than trying to punish the excited kingdom, they have decided not to facilitate the process of leaving the union. And this for obvious reasons.

You made your bed, etc.
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 10:42   #82 (permalink)  
 
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It would be a lot simpler for everybody if the UK just decided not to leave....
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 13:04   #83 (permalink)  
 
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I heard that the CAA at Gatwick closed their Brexit office at the end of last year. If they did, someone somewhere knew what the outcome is going to be. And that someone should have realised that being in EASA still means being beholding to the ECJ.

Additionally, so I read somewhere, there are some 65 Open Skies agreements to be renegotiated assuming we are leaving. That raises the questions of majority UK ownership of UK airlines which leaves some big names with big problems.

So, personally, I hope the KISS principal will be applied as regards aviation. The alternative is not appealing the way its going at the moment.
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 14:03   #84 (permalink)  
 
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The disaster that is Brexit continues unabated and aviation is going to be no small part of it.

The UK aviation industry, which plays a major part in the economic success of the UK is posed to go one of two ways. Firstly, if the UK remains in EASA, albeit without the right to influence or vote on the ‘rules’ then it may well survive reasonably intact. However, in order for this to happen the UK Government and our aviation companies would be subject to the ECJ which is an anathema to the hard line, right wing Brexiteers as they want nothing to do with the ECJ.

If the UK aviation industry does not remain a member of EASA and is no longer a part of Open Skies, then any or all of the following could occur with unforeseen consequences for the industry.

• The UK retains sovereignty over its airspace and has no say in the EU’s airspace as is allowed now under EASA and open skies

• The UK would have very limited “freedoms” of the air

• Traffic rights would be given by bilateral agreements and not in line with open skies

• The EU and its members would protect their national airlines and aviation companies and limit/prohibit competition from the UK

• The EU would only allow the use of designated airports and not as occurs with open skies

• There could be single airline designation on certain routes from the UK

• There could be limited frequencies / capacity

• A requirement for double approval for fares between the UK and the EU

• A requirement for pooling agreements between airlines flying between the UK and the EU countries

• Prior to open skies most airlines were state-owned. It would be a tragedy if this ever returned.

None of the above would help the UK economy or consumer, including those who voted for Brexit.

It is no surprise that both easyJet and Thomas Cook are setting up headquarters in Europe. Other airlines are looking at ways of protecting themselves.
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 14:32   #85 (permalink)  
 
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This notification is simply a statement of fact. The UK government plans a bill to retain EU law for the transition period. The ECJ retains authority over certain matters in the transition period and any transition from EU oversight takes place gradually after that.

BUT ... none of this has been agreed yet. Both the EU and the UK would lose out significantly unless these matters are settled. The assumption is they will be settled. After all, disruption on this scale is unthinkable to both parties.

BUT ... they aren't settled yet (or even remotely close to being settled) and we really need to get on with this to avoid chaos.

In my personal opinion it will be impossible to do anything other than accept EASA for now. Our pre-EASA bi-lateral agreements no longer apply. Bi-lateral negotiations, open skies agreements etc. will take a long time - there is nothing we can do about other countries parliamentary timescales - and that assumes the political will is there.

I think EASA in some shape or form with ECJ involvement in some shape or form is pretty much inevitable.
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 14:56   #86 (permalink)  
 
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Brexit has been an ugly head rearing its head and not being thought through, certainly not presented to the voters in honesty of which problems could be arising.

The people loose out, employees, travellers alike.

To date there is:
NO guarantee UK passport holders can remain in and work in EU;
NO guarantee EU passport holders can remain in and work in UK;
NO guarantee existing arrangement for licences will be transferrable and or accepted;
NO guarantee of flying rights as per 101917 above
NO guarantee EU airlines will be able to have UK personnel;
NO guarantee UK airlines will be able to have UK personnel;
NO guarantee EU airlines will be able to operate out of UK as at present (eg Ryanair);

Brexit was a vote by the older generation to show their resent of never having had a vote prior to ever increasing integration. Unfortunately it not them that will live with the consequences of their choices.
Instead the younger generation which voted REMAIN in overwhelming numbers and is not aware of any other way sees the benefit of the EU, the freedoms of travel and employment it offers, suffers most, for longer and possibly irreversible to the current status quo.
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 19:59   #87 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birmingham View Post
This notification is simply a statement of fact. The UK government plans a bill to retain EU law for the transition period. The ECJ retains authority over certain matters in the transition period and any transition from EU oversight takes place gradually after that.

BUT ... none of this has been agreed yet. Both the EU and the UK would lose out significantly unless these matters are settled. The assumption is they will be settled. After all, disruption on this scale is unthinkable to both parties.

BUT ... they aren't settled yet (or even remotely close to being settled) and we really need to get on with this to avoid chaos.

In my personal opinion it will be impossible to do anything other than accept EASA for now. Our pre-EASA bi-lateral agreements no longer apply. Bi-lateral negotiations, open skies agreements etc. will take a long time - there is nothing we can do about other countries parliamentary timescales - and that assumes the political will is there.

I think EASA in some shape or form with ECJ involvement in some shape or form is pretty much inevitable.
The real problem is that it is now a time bomb on a systemic crisis. It's irrelevant what's good for us or good for them. Finding a final deal with 27 countries and numerous vested interests is unlikely. The clock ticks.
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 20:17   #88 (permalink)  
 
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Skyjob,
I do take exception to your overall assessment of older people (and on this forum many older ex-pilots!) resenting the EU ! It may be the case for some but certainly not for all! Some of us geriatrics are actually quite pro-EU (obviously some things are not right but that applies to many things!)

Please do not generalise!! This is in part why there are so many disagreements.

Let us try and get some sense out of it, we all need each other.

Bill
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 20:26   #89 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Macgillivray View Post
I do take exception to your overall assessment of older people (and on this forum many older ex-pilots!) resenting the EU ! It may be the case for some but certainly not for all! Some of us geriatrics are actually quite pro-EU
Like my mother. She lived through the war. Voting remain was a complete no-brainer for her.
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 20:41   #90 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Macgillivray View Post
Please do not generalise!! This is in part why there are so many disagreements.
My apologies for sounding generalised, unfortunately statistics didn't lie after the vote, showing this, I wish it were different.

Like many, I am one of those in a situation where my future at current airline at current location and therefore my livelihood and family life is at stake. And I did not get a vote, having been UK based for 2 decades paying HMRC to fund the economy and support it! But it will be my life, my family's life and livelihood at stake, due no fault nor choice of our own. Thanks you to the Leave Voters, I am sure I will be easily replaced by a UK version instead.
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 21:01   #91 (permalink)  
 
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The whole precess of the UK leaving the EU could be made a lot smoother but the resentment, anger and frustration from the EU side, is still very much palpable. Unless this subsidies, then progress shall be slow and painstaking. Hearing the very recent quotes of Tusk saying he is 'furious' about Brexit and Verhofstadt using such an adjective on BBC as 'stupid' to describe the process, shows the strong level of bitterness that still exists. This will do little to appease the politicians who are staunch supporters of Brexit and especially with the overflow of raw emotion and feeling from the EU side.

I get the feeling that those with any degree of influence and control within the EU, seem to be determined on going out of their way to make the Brexit process as complicated and as painful for the UK, as it possibly can be. The ramifications for the aviation industry could be significant but it doesn't have to be this way. It could be far more harmonious!!!
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 22:02   #92 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Geezer View Post
The whole precess of the UK leaving the EU could be made a lot smoother but the resentment, anger and frustration from the EU side, is still very much palpable.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, all they're doing is waiting for the UK to decide what it wants. (Other than the free rainbow coloured flying unicorns which is all we've asked for so far of course.)
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 22:31   #93 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Meanwhile, back in the real world, all they're doing is waiting for the UK to decide what it wants. (Other than the free rainbow coloured flying unicorns which is all we've asked for so far of course.)
Should it be simply a case of waiting, then why do we see such a robust and stern tone from politicians from Brussels, rather than one that is more placid and passive? They could indeed be frustrated at the lack of progress from the UK side but why should this frustration be so palpable, when they make it abundantly clear that Brits have far more to loose from what is going to happen.

The EU will continue to exist regardless of how amicable future negations turn out to be (or not!) but one could be forgiven that the roles have been reversed given on which side the raw feeling seems to be strongest.
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 22:50   #94 (permalink)  
 
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Is it just me, or do a fair number of these Brexit bashers appear to be non UK resident?

Why do they care???

Last edited by 4468; 17th Apr 2018 at 00:05.
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 23:10   #95 (permalink)  
 
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I now sum up the propositions which are before you. Our constant aim must be to build and fortify the United Nations Organisation. Under and within that world concept we must recreate the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe, and the first practical step will be to form a Council of Europe.
Some old geezer called Churchill, in 1946 at the University of Zurich
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Old 17th Apr 2018, 09:46   #96 (permalink)  
 
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This is not a crisis, it’s just an administrative hiccup. It’s will be solved eventually and a pragmatic solution will be found. It is just a pity that some people find it difficult to accept that a decision taken by the UK electorate will actually be followed up by action. In this case it is to leave the EU. It is just a shame that the EU did not accept that this was a possibility. The writing on the wall was clear when the ink on the signature to the Maastricht treat was still wet. Despite our huge list of faults and failings, the British have a deep desire for personal freedoms and the right to self determination. We are unable to accept being ruled by anybody we can not remove from office. We are very pro-European and have proved this on many an occasion. On 31 December 2006 we made our last payment of 45.5 million clear our WW2 debt to the US and in March 2015 we eventually cleared our WW1 debt of 1.9 billion. And some of my relatives are still in northern France and in the Atlantic.

How we leave the EU is up to negotiation and the intent by both sides. Unfortunately there are many in Europe with short term, vindictive memories who would like to see us punished for leaving but there are also a great number of sensible peope who would like to see a fair and reasonable outcome. A good reason would be that we are the second largest economy in Europe. And damaging our economy means we will all suffer. So with my most optimistic hat on I envisage a reasonable outcome - eventually. But I’m under no illusion that this will happen in a timely fashion. The EASA are not epitome of bureaucratic efficiency. After all, why should they be? They are totally unaccountable and answerable to nobody. Which is possibly one of the reasons...

PM
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Old 17th Apr 2018, 11:27   #97 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polax52 View Post
Overflight is not effected in any way. Totally different convention from the EU open skies. I think -Chicago convention from many years prior to any EU agreement.
The International Air Services Transit Agreement done at Chicago 7 December 1944. This agreement effectively grants unlimited 1st freedom (overflight) and 2nd freedom (tech stop) rights by a signatory to all other signatories. The U.K. and most other EU member States are signatories.

If one party renounces it (a years notice necessary) they remove overflight/transit rights for themselves as well as for other signatories over their territory. Canada renounced their participation in the ‘80s requiring them to propose revisions to all their existing Air Services agreements to include 1st/2nd freedom rights. That took quite a few years as I recall.
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Old 18th Apr 2018, 14:16   #98 (permalink)  
 
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UKs cards!

In a meeting last year in EU , Junker was making a plan to react to UK.
He looks around the table and asks every EU country to make a list of what they and EU needed from UK in the future. So as to have a list of things EU could not do without !

The room fell silent as everyone worked hard!
After a few seconds someone concluded :

Nothing!

Gone flying!
Cpt B
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Old 19th Apr 2018, 09:06   #99 (permalink)  
 
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Surely the UKCAA will issue an amendment to the EASA licence to say that it is now a valid UK licence? A slip of paper is all it would take.
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Old 19th Apr 2018, 10:15   #100 (permalink)  
 
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............and some sticky labels. Mountain - molehill - go!
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