UA forcibly remove random pax from flight - Round 2
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And an airport cop should have been aware that the passenger concerned hadn't committed any criminal offence and should have been left well alone ... So what was lacking, the airline's policies, the cop's training, neither, or both?
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I must have missed that, I'm not aware of any finding that the decision to remove the passenger was "unlawful". I'm looking at a distinction between actions that might have civil liability and those that are criminal on their face.
From my admittedly limited knowledge United faced clear civil exposure for this, however I can't see anything in the officers actions that rose to the standard of criminal misconduct. This is not meant to defend him or his actions in any way or to dispute his termination.
I'm looking at this from a perspective of simple cause and effect. The airline chose to involve the police and the passenger refused a lawful (even if incorrect) order which led to the unfortunate incident. If this occurred in a setting where civil disobedience has a measure of protection (public protest) then in fact the officer was guilty of a civil rights violation. However, under the circumstances I'd wager that the actual ticket gives the airline the right to remove the passenger and the officer the legal authority (and protection)to act on the airlines behalf.
Again, United was (and continues) to act in a shortsighted and unprofessional manner and the officer's judgement (and training?) was poor. This should have been handled much more tactfully but in the end someone had to get off the plane....
From my admittedly limited knowledge United faced clear civil exposure for this, however I can't see anything in the officers actions that rose to the standard of criminal misconduct. This is not meant to defend him or his actions in any way or to dispute his termination.
I'm looking at this from a perspective of simple cause and effect. The airline chose to involve the police and the passenger refused a lawful (even if incorrect) order which led to the unfortunate incident. If this occurred in a setting where civil disobedience has a measure of protection (public protest) then in fact the officer was guilty of a civil rights violation. However, under the circumstances I'd wager that the actual ticket gives the airline the right to remove the passenger and the officer the legal authority (and protection)to act on the airlines behalf.
Again, United was (and continues) to act in a shortsighted and unprofessional manner and the officer's judgement (and training?) was poor. This should have been handled much more tactfully but in the end someone had to get off the plane....
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So the passenger had a ticket and has undeniable rights and remedies but I am unaware of any passenger actually having the right to unilaterally refuse the order to leave an aircraft.
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And, as shouldn't need to be pointed out here, some airlines cherish their pilots as fellow aviation professionals, and others take the position that "it would be so much easier to run the airline if it weren't for the damned pilots."
It starts at the top, but it pervades everywhere. My hope is that airline execs who don't like dealing with pilots or passengers soon find themselves in a position of not having to do so.
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This wasn't a criminal issue but a matter of civil compliance. The ticket itself undoubtedly gave the airline the right to ask the passenger in question to vacate the plane. The underlying legal issue would actually be somewhat similar to trespassing. There is absolutely no criminal charge for being on someone else's property...until you refuse to leave (or it is clearly marked).
So the passenger had a ticket and has undeniable rights and remedies but I am unaware of any passenger actually having the right to unilaterally refuse the order to leave an aircraft.
So the passenger had a ticket and has undeniable rights and remedies but I am unaware of any passenger actually having the right to unilaterally refuse the order to leave an aircraft.
Forget any ticket ... The pax had a boarding pass with that flight number and that seat number clearly printed on it, and even perhaps the cabin crew politely directed him to his allocated seat, so why should he need to give up that seat to another person who doesn't have such a boarding pass?
someone had to get off the plane
But, if the price is right there will always be someone willing to give up their seat, $500, $1,000, $2,000 etc. but I'd like to bet that the ground staff didn't exhaust such possibilities before calling in the heavy mob.
Thread Starter
Forget any ticket ... The pax had a boarding pass with that flight number and that seat number clearly printed on it, and even perhaps the cabin crew politely directed him to his allocated seat, so why should he need to give up that seat to another person who doesn't have such a boarding pass?
No they didn't, the airline could have made alternative arrangements for their positioning crew, they could have delayed or cancelled the flight that crew were next scheduled to operate, they may have been all sorts of alternative crewing possibilities available.
But, if the price is right there will always be someone willing to give up their seat, $500, $1,000, $2,000 etc. but I'd like to bet that the ground staff didn't exhaust such possibilities before calling in the heavy mob.
No they didn't, the airline could have made alternative arrangements for their positioning crew, they could have delayed or cancelled the flight that crew were next scheduled to operate, they may have been all sorts of alternative crewing possibilities available.
But, if the price is right there will always be someone willing to give up their seat, $500, $1,000, $2,000 etc. but I'd like to bet that the ground staff didn't exhaust such possibilities before calling in the heavy mob.
The new aspect (Round 2) need only be about the airport officer's claim to compensation, or anything related to that claim.
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Still doesn’t show the correct use of the word.
Thread Starter
Maybe.
I don't know what mechanism they use for selecting a passenger to eject.
Maybe they use an algorithm with a random number generator... maybe.
If not, then their selection was poor. They should logically CHOOSE someone traveling alone if they just want to sling one person out of the door.
Dr Dao was with his wife (and daughter ??)
I don't know what mechanism they use for selecting a passenger to eject.
Maybe they use an algorithm with a random number generator... maybe.
If not, then their selection was poor. They should logically CHOOSE someone traveling alone if they just want to sling one person out of the door.
Dr Dao was with his wife (and daughter ??)
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In my experience in UK if a cop is called to an apparent scene of crime it shall become his/her task to establish what, if any, crime has been committed and he/she may need to call a more senior cop on the radio/phone to establish such.
Thereafter the cop should announce to any offender that he is being arrested on suspicion of whatever crime, taken in to custody accordingly, and should the offender resist arrest then that in itself would be a further criminal offence.
I don't pretend to be knowledgeable of US/Illinois law but from what I recall seeing in video(s) was that none of this happened and it was literally "you get off this plane" before they beat the cr@p out the guy.
So who is at fault, are these airport cops so poorly trained that they don't even understand the law and/or have a more senior officer to contact before taking such an action or did these airport cop(s) simply overstep the mark and act outside of their jurisdiction?
Thread Starter
However no need to re-hash the entire argument over how UA should manage their crew relocations.
Hopefully this thread can be limited to opinions as to whether the airport officer should or should not receive compensation.
Ultimately, a judge will decide which JB contributors are right or wrong.
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I think that it is not insignificant that the United flight in question was operated by Republic Airlines, a subcontractor, and that all airline employees involved, including the dead-heading crewmembers, were Republic employees. Republic Holdings is based in Indianapolis, Indiana and provides regional jet service for United, Delta and American airlines. The Republic CEO is on record openly bragging to his employees that they, Republic, have a contractual agreement with each airline that they can remove any passenger for a deadheading crewmember at anytime because "the airplanes belong to us". United bears responsibility for the conduct of their subcontractor, but Republic crewmembers have frequently repeated their CEO's assertion.
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I think that it is not insignificant that the United flight in question was operated by Republic Airlines, a subcontractor, and that all airline employees involved, including the dead-heading crewmembers, were Republic employees. Republic Holdings is based in Indianapolis, Indiana and provides regional jet service for United, Delta and American airlines.
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The airline can't have it both ways. If you are going to have the aircraft livery and crew uniforms and general face presented to the public say "United" (even if there is fine print somewhere), and if the flights are going to carry United flight numbers, and if you're going to sell tickets to those flights on the United website, and if you're going to use this as evidence of your awesomely awesome route network, then when something goes wrong, you can't start saying, "Whoa, dude, not us, that was Republic."
the Chicago gate agents are actually United Employees. Can't seem to find that now, so not 100 percent sure where I read it.
In my experience in UK if a cop is called to an apparent scene of crime it shall become his/her task to establish what, if any, crime has been committed and he/she may need to call a more senior cop on the radio/phone to establish such.
Thereafter the cop should announce to any offender that he is being arrested on suspicion of whatever crime, taken in to custody accordingly, and should the offender resist arrest then that in itself would be a further criminal offence.
Thereafter the cop should announce to any offender that he is being arrested on suspicion of whatever crime, taken in to custody accordingly, and should the offender resist arrest then that in itself would be a further criminal offence.
This guy had neither space nor time, and was possibly inexperienced in this kind of situation. A Chicago inner-city cop would have experience in handling this, and judging how the recalcitrant will react. How often are the Airport cops dealing with guys refusing to move?
He's called to remove a pax, who is defying the cabin crew. He (they) did it. He might well fear dismissal if he walked away and left the aircraft presumably stuck at the gate.
(My career was 43+ years of teaching teenagers, and maintaining discipline, with the luxury of calling the cops to remove someone in the few extreme cases.)
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The Wikipedia account of this incident makes for some interesting reading and from reading it if I were the cop I'd sue United also.
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the passenger has paid for the service, and has done nothing to warrant his removal...I would sit tight as well if traveling with my family, and required to be at my place of employment...