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DC87 unsafe departure

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DC87 unsafe departure

Old 31st Jan 2018, 05:52
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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What kind of additional cargo would anyone bring from MDE to MIA?
Maybe the kind of "stuff" that you don't want to mention on the cargo manifest
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Old 31st Jan 2018, 06:01
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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The way I remember things, with a 747-200, you knew where the runway end was:
that row of red lights that´s coming closer....
Never saw that with a 747-400 or -8.
Performance calculations changed over time, I suppose.
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Old 31st Jan 2018, 06:04
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Been flying to MDE for my US Carrier for many years.
Typically at max performance with deciding factors on getting off the ground in terms of 10's of pounds, single passengers and single degrees.

I don't think we were ever that close to the trees, but I surely was never impressed with the distance as we clawed overhead in a 737-800.

Throw in a cargo outfit with the risk of questionable computations and this video doesn't surprise me.

Years ago a DC-8 ploughed into an office park out of MIA because of a tragic load mistake.
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Old 31st Jan 2018, 06:31
  #44 (permalink)  
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
 
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Never saw that with a 747-400 or -8.
Don't know about the -800 but departing Singapore for London on a warm, humid night in a -400, with a full load, you will see the end reds, rotation was within the last 1000'. Edited to add PW4056 engines.
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Old 31st Jan 2018, 14:01
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Years ago a DC-8 ploughed into an office park out of MIA because of a tragic load mistake.
Was that not a load shift issue though?
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Old 31st Jan 2018, 16:47
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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No, a W&B error caused by confusing the load plans for the originally-scheduled aircraft and one that was substituted.
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Old 1st Feb 2018, 00:24
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Ah yes, that was it. Thanks.
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Old 1st Feb 2018, 23:31
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Was the DC8 series under CAR4B or 14CFR 25?
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Old 1st Feb 2018, 23:35
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hotel Tango View Post
Was that not a load shift issue though?
Good friend of mine was PF. Yes, it was a load shift. Utterly tragic; a great man
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Old 2nd Feb 2018, 00:11
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Have you told the NTSB that they got it wrong ?
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Old 2nd Feb 2018, 04:36
  #51 (permalink)  
fdr
 
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Re the N rego 742F at BRU, Nope. but read the report, and have a look at the data that is provided. The maths is pretty straightforward. The point of engine failure is very well defined, and the position down the runway is ugly, up to that point the plane was on 4 engines at full throated roar, per the FDR. It was nasty before any engine failure, but the crew were beaten up for their decision.
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Old 2nd Feb 2018, 05:29
  #52 (permalink)  
fdr
 
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Originally Posted by parabellum View Post
Don't know about the -800 but departing Singapore for London on a warm, humid night in a -400, with a full load, you will see the end reds, rotation was within the last 1000'. Edited to add PW4056 engines.
On the runways that we are driving -400's heavy off, the centerline lights commence white/red alternating configuration at 3000' from the end of the runway. The runway edge lights change at 2000' to run. Out of say, LAX, SIN, BKK/VTBS, LHR, etc, then on a normal takeoff on 4 blowers, you would expect to be rotating about 3 seconds before reaching the coaming cutoff of the change in center line lighting configuration. 2 holer aircraft are much further back, so long as they are running on both blenders. Thats for the commencement of rotate, which takes some time and distance to transition to getting wheels to come off the ground. The FCTM gives good guidance on what should occur, and what happens with various abused conditions.

Planes can be heavy, acceptable GW error margins are dependent on regulator, with at least the Euros caring somewhat, but then we see a lot of nasty end of runway events with euro avions, not all being 'A170-Babes". Occasionally, stuff happens, but it should be for a cause, such as weight, temp, wind, or other operational oops. It is neither safe or legal to have aircraft that are exciting on all takeoffs in limit cases, without a cause. The airworthiness basis of an aircraft is that it is safe, and that it complies to the TC, which then indicates certification basis (revision level of CS/FAR 25 etc). If the plane doesn't meet either of those factors, then the definition of airworthy becomes a topic. Cruise level-normal) data is not certified by the regulator, TO and LDG data is.

Deregulation forces competition, which puts stress on efficiency. We don't lose many engines every year, and most are not within the region where it will be exciting, on limit cases. If it does, you have a bad day, or interesting photo ops. I fly an aircraft today that is permitted to be exciting, but we don't have passengers, only tactical crew who are prepared to accept the risk and see the funny side.

Characteristics of runway centreline lights
9.9.5 – Runway centreline lights are to be inset, fixed lights showing white from the threshold to a point 900m from the runway end. From 900m to 300m from the runway end, the light pattern is to be two red lights followed by two white lights. For the last 300m before the runway end, the lights are to show red.

Characteristics of high intensity runway edge lights
9.2.16 – High intensity runway edge lights are to be fixed unidirectional lights with the main beam directed towards the threshold.
9.2.17 – High intensity runway edge light beam coverage are to be toed in towards the runway as follows:
(a) 3.5° in the case of a 30-45m wide runway;
(b) 4.5° in the case of a 60m wide runway.
9.2.18 – High intensity runway edge lights are to show variable white except for those located within 600m from the runway end which are to show yellow.
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Old 2nd Feb 2018, 06:34
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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It's a sad but open secret that a small number of freight operators sometimes abuse MTOW limits (at least I hope it's a small number).
Many years ago, at a 747 operators conference, I was eating lunch with representatives from a now defunct Asian freight operator. I was talking about a proposed 747 derivative that would have a million pound MTOW - one of the reps commented along the line of 'so what, we've been doing that for years'.
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Old 6th Feb 2018, 12:33
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pugilistic Animus View Post
Was the DC8 series under CAR4B or 14CFR 25?
CAR 4B, I had to go look.
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Old 6th Feb 2018, 18:32
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for that
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Old 11th Feb 2018, 10:36
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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For you 4 holer drivers, how often have you had a failure to get above 35' (without an engine failure) and not reported it?
One could argue it should also be the company and manufacturer doing this through an established Flight Data Monitoring programme. Ive never really had the capacity to assess 35 feet whilst getting the dangly bits up or focussing on capturing pitch attitude.
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Old 17th Feb 2018, 00:27
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ErwinS View Post
Heard that after arrival at MIA the cargo on board was 10 tons more then the documents said.....
I'm just interested in following aviation. Anything I say is my own version of reality.


I used to be involved in air freight. Domestic U.S. and International. Passenger aircraft and Cargo only. Military and civilian.

I had a dock worker erroneously place tracking numbers on a 30 pound tote and a 3500 pound pallet. The tote was intended to go to Shanghai via LAS-LAX on passenger aircraft. The pallet was intended to stay on the dock for 8 months of storage. The driver then barely missed the cutoff for the airline so another shift took the 3500 pound pallet to the airline and they gladly accepted it with typewriter printed ICAO bills for 30 pounds converted to kg.

8 months later, looking for said pallet, I personally called the airline and they confirmed not only the weight of 30 pounds (kg) but the description of 1 green tote. They were adamant they successfully transported it and it was signed for. I had it on my desk.

The error was clearly my office's, but the airline did not update the computer or bills. If the organization I was with can make an honest, albeit approx $100,000 cargo claim, error in under reported weight, how often and by how much are the weights off?

In other words, the Swiss cheese starts before the aviation industry is even involved. The cargo weights you have should not be trusted.

I would acknowledge it is impractical, but I think every time freight is loaded on an aircraft it should be weighed. At least on segments approaching limitations.
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