FO removed from BA Flight
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Are people seriously saying that because he wasn’t P1/P2 for departure it’s not serious!? What about an incapacitation of either operating crew during climb out? What’s he going to say....sorry need another couple of hours to straighten up. Get real.
The facts will out eventually and if the said individual was over the limit I hope he gets the help he needs.....but he may well end up inside for a spell first.....and I suspect his career is finished. It’s sad whether it was a brazen/brainless/stress induced consumption of alcohol....as professionals we know the rules and if, for whatever reason, we are unable to maintain the discipline required we should seek help as early as possible.
A4
The facts will out eventually and if the said individual was over the limit I hope he gets the help he needs.....but he may well end up inside for a spell first.....and I suspect his career is finished. It’s sad whether it was a brazen/brainless/stress induced consumption of alcohol....as professionals we know the rules and if, for whatever reason, we are unable to maintain the discipline required we should seek help as early as possible.
A4
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At outstations, my (Middle East Airline) rules are that we are on duty only 1:00 prior to departure. However, buried away in the OMA is a company requirement 'not to be under the influence of drug/alcohol at any time while in uniform.
Some of our outstation hotels are quite a way from the airport and it is not uncommon to get a wake up call 3:30 prior to dep for transport 2:30 prior to dep.
It wasn't very long ago that one of our crew was (allegedly) 'met' getting out of the hotel elevator prior to checking out (2:45 prior to dep), blew over the limit and lost their job. Not sure about the licence as, technically, not on duty.
Be careful out there.
Some of our outstation hotels are quite a way from the airport and it is not uncommon to get a wake up call 3:30 prior to dep for transport 2:30 prior to dep.
It wasn't very long ago that one of our crew was (allegedly) 'met' getting out of the hotel elevator prior to checking out (2:45 prior to dep), blew over the limit and lost their job. Not sure about the licence as, technically, not on duty.
Be careful out there.
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You can buy an electronic tester at halfords for £150 quid which is cheap insurance for either driving or going to work. They have a digital readout and in my view provide cheap insurance to those odd occasions when you may have a drink. Cant totally rely on these but certainly if it says your over, don't drive or report 
Ut Sementem Feeceris
....even cheaper is don’t drink before a duty. If you require/need alcohol the night before an early report something is wrong - perhaps with your personal life or your discipline/attitude. Buying a (probably) questionably accurate breathalyser to check you’re “ok” should be setting off alarm bells. Bit of personal reflection may be?
We have a highly responsible job, remunerated accordingly. Is it worth risking that (and potentially the aircraft and its contents) for a drink? The rules are clear and known before we signed up - it comes with the territory.
As alluded to in an earlier post perhaps the greater threat in the future will be drugs not alcohol.
We have a highly responsible job, remunerated accordingly. Is it worth risking that (and potentially the aircraft and its contents) for a drink? The rules are clear and known before we signed up - it comes with the territory.
As alluded to in an earlier post perhaps the greater threat in the future will be drugs not alcohol.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-drink-driving.
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In aviation cases where the lower limit applies, only a blood or urine sample can be used as evidence (the breathalyser is not approved for use as evidence at the lower limit), so until the results are back from the forensic laboratory the police cannot be certain that an offence has been committed. In a high profile case such as this, it would not surprise me if the police 'fast tracked' that process.
I can remember when the new UK regulations came in around 14 years ago, in very broad layman's terms, the limit for driving a car was/is about 2 pints of ordinary bitter (3.8% OG). The limit for flying an aeroplane was the equivalent of 1/2 of a pint of ordinary bitter. In other words, not a lot. Air Trafficers were also subject to the latter limit.
However, LAMEs (engineers) only had to meet the car driving limit. I could never quite understand that for engineers can also cause a modicum of aviation mayhem.
However, LAMEs (engineers) only had to meet the car driving limit. I could never quite understand that for engineers can also cause a modicum of aviation mayhem.
What pray does that have to do with the subject under discussion?
How does being "actively employed as Commercial Aircrew" make any difference to views and opinions on a possible (and I stress possible) case of being over the limit when in charge of an aircraft??
How does being "actively employed as Commercial Aircrew" make any difference to views and opinions on a possible (and I stress possible) case of being over the limit when in charge of an aircraft??
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Another procedural difference highlighted by the case of Pakistani pilot, is that whilst driving over the prescribed limit is only tried in the Magistrates Court, in the case of pilots, it seems, the case can be remitted to the Crown Court either for trial or sentence.
The Crown Court has enhanced sentencing powers.
Perforce, that means it takes longer.
The Crown Court has enhanced sentencing powers.
Perforce, that means it takes longer.
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But please do share with us how it works in the USA.
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Much sympathy for a fellow pilot.
This kind of story might make our industry look bad, but it should not - it's a reminder of how high standards are in aviation.
The UK blood alcohol limit for pilots (and cabin crew) is 20 milligrammes per 100ml. That's 1/4 of the driving limit.
Where else are the rules so strict?
I wonder what happens if a surgeon, government minister or senior business leader shows up smelling of drink?
I bet they're not handcuffed for all to read about in the news and I bet they don't get put in prison for 6 months and then fired.
This kind of story might make our industry look bad, but it should not - it's a reminder of how high standards are in aviation.
The UK blood alcohol limit for pilots (and cabin crew) is 20 milligrammes per 100ml. That's 1/4 of the driving limit.
Where else are the rules so strict?
I wonder what happens if a surgeon, government minister or senior business leader shows up smelling of drink?
I bet they're not handcuffed for all to read about in the news and I bet they don't get put in prison for 6 months and then fired.
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I am a long time lurker on pprune and would never dream about commenting about anything that I have no knowledge about. I am a train driver in the UK and we have a drug and alcohol policy which is based on the Transport and Works Act 1992. For alcohol we are allowed nothing in the 8 hours before signing on. From 24 hours before signing on until the 8 hour cutoff you are allowed to have 7 units of alcohol. A pint of 4% lager is 2.3 units. All medication including over the counter must be declared and if there is any doubt it has to be cleared by occupational health department.
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I’d be interested in your opinion of the law. Post 113 defines aviation function states “ in flight”. That’s not been my understanding thus far.
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When I do fly I appreciate it's highly skilled job, involving much training and experience. When I fly I am putting my life, and those of my loved ones, entirely in the hands of other people and I expect them to do their utmost to ensure we all get from point A to point B in complete safety.
I'll just repeat a bit of that. I am putting my life entirely in the hands of other people. As such, I expect them to be at the top of their game and not under the deliberate influence of any substance that might cause their skills to be blunted in any way. None, zero, zilch.
There are rules, I imagine, that cover the usage of any substance that might reduce the effectiveness of a pilot, and cabin crew. If any member of the cabin crew or flight deck don't follow those rules then they are compromising my safety, my personal safety.
If you break the rules, you are out. No if's, no but's in my rule book. Flight deck crew appear to me to be very well remunerated for what is required of them - and that is right, absolutely right. But don't screw around with my safety or anyone else's on the flight. I'm an innocent in all this after all and I'm putting my life in your hands, or did I mention that already?
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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in the case of pilots, it seems, the case can be remitted to the Crown Court either for trial or sentence
Just curious, if the case is remitted to the Crown Court for trial does that mean it will now be before a jury? Can the case still be remitted to a Crown Court if the accused pleaded guilty in a lower court?
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Fair point yellow triumph. I suppose you apply the same criteria to the surgeon about to operate on you? Oh and the pharmacist dispensing your drugs. And the mechanic servicing your car and every other road user and the gas fitter etc etc oh and you of course shouldn’t drink even at home you may fall down the stairs ah no that’s different you are endangering your own life but no you may land on someone.
I don’t condone reporting for duty under the influence AT ALL. I think we should keep it in perspective however,air travel is amazingly safe. If you were to be killed or injured during a flight the statistics would suggest that it wouldn’t be due to pilot intoxication ( in the Western World). Pilot fatigue is infinitely more likely as is your exit being hindered by your or someone else’s intoxication/ retrieval of Cabin baggage.
I don’t condone reporting for duty under the influence AT ALL. I think we should keep it in perspective however,air travel is amazingly safe. If you were to be killed or injured during a flight the statistics would suggest that it wouldn’t be due to pilot intoxication ( in the Western World). Pilot fatigue is infinitely more likely as is your exit being hindered by your or someone else’s intoxication/ retrieval of Cabin baggage.
yellowtriumph, Very well put and a posting all those personally responsible for the well-being of others should read, whether surgeons, bus drivers, manufacturing pharmacists or pilots.
I understand and am sure that all of my professional colleagues are of a similar mind.
I understand and am sure that all of my professional colleagues are of a similar mind.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/20/section/95
NB: IANAL
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yellowtriumph
Having spent forty years as a professional pilot, I can assure you, these days, the performance of your pilot is infinitely more likely to be adversely affected by fatigue, than alcohol. Particularly at the intoxication levels specified by the law!
The effects of fatigue are serious. They were vastly underestimated/ignored when politicians (between boozy lunches!) brought in the much less restrictive EASA flight time limitations. Totally ignoring the science in the process!
I can't be breathalysed for fatigue, and it's problematic to self diagnose! Not least because companies don't want to be forced to employ more 'expensive' pilots, and many customers buy their tickets on the basis of only one criteria. Price.
But don't let a mere professional get in the way of your condescending grandstanding! Just continue as you are in blissful ignorance, while great professionals keep your soft squidgy bag of flesh and organs in one piece!
If you want to know who might REALLY be compromising your safety, you need to look way beyond pilots!
Having spent forty years as a professional pilot, I can assure you, these days, the performance of your pilot is infinitely more likely to be adversely affected by fatigue, than alcohol. Particularly at the intoxication levels specified by the law!
The effects of fatigue are serious. They were vastly underestimated/ignored when politicians (between boozy lunches!) brought in the much less restrictive EASA flight time limitations. Totally ignoring the science in the process!
I can't be breathalysed for fatigue, and it's problematic to self diagnose! Not least because companies don't want to be forced to employ more 'expensive' pilots, and many customers buy their tickets on the basis of only one criteria. Price.
But don't let a mere professional get in the way of your condescending grandstanding! Just continue as you are in blissful ignorance, while great professionals keep your soft squidgy bag of flesh and organs in one piece!
If you want to know who might REALLY be compromising your safety, you need to look way beyond pilots!
Last edited by 4468; 23rd Jan 2018 at 21:07.