What do you think of this kind of Pilot?
Guest
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Well, they made astronauts out of common chimpanzees, by the sole means of wooden mock-ups, electrical shocks as a punishment and bananas as a reward. After all, this creatures managed to succesfully maneuvre the same ship, Alan Shepard shortly after gained worldwide fame for. He was trained in resembling equipment, but typalwise he had a much shorter way to go. If simulation can accomplish this, it surely can do more than maintain a job proficiency for an already capable individual. If a simulation is good for one thing, it is to get the primitivism out of one's inherited habitual burdens at lesser costs and lesser risks. The mentioned MS software simply is somehow this wooden mock-up again and so most of the professional concerns mentioned absolutely sound right. The question remaining is, whether the realities of flying or the technology of its virtual reproduction are changing faster. I presume, the latter will apply. The ones more interested should read B.F. Skinner's memorable thesis on "Operant Conditioning" and the 13hrs+ sim guy should either get engaged or wait for MS Real Life Simulator to cover his other needs, provided there are any.
[This message has been edited by jodok (edited 21 August 2000).]
[This message has been edited by jodok (edited 21 August 2000).]
Guest
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Dear all,
As a very junior but not very young Lear co-pilot,here is an observation for you sim experts! sat in your in front of your computer you do not have have foreign atc giving you directs to places you cannot understand, when your clearance is changed you cannot press 'p' while you work it out, also there isn't an off option if the weather is dog **** and you don't like the look of it! However I do use ms 98 to practice, and Mr guvenor if your still following this thread the Lear sim lands like the real thing:- go to the introductory flight and the instructor gives you an N1 for the approach hold it to 50' smoothly back on the power lever and the a/c lands itself DO not flair.
As a very junior but not very young Lear co-pilot,here is an observation for you sim experts! sat in your in front of your computer you do not have have foreign atc giving you directs to places you cannot understand, when your clearance is changed you cannot press 'p' while you work it out, also there isn't an off option if the weather is dog **** and you don't like the look of it! However I do use ms 98 to practice, and Mr guvenor if your still following this thread the Lear sim lands like the real thing:- go to the introductory flight and the instructor gives you an N1 for the approach hold it to 50' smoothly back on the power lever and the a/c lands itself DO not flair.
Guest
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OK - have to relate the story. Child of a friend asked me to look at his MSFS (don't know which model) as he had loaded the HKG scenery package.
Had a go in the Learjet. Max angle climbout through LaiYuMun Gap to 7000', chopped throttles, rolled inverted and pulled through with speedbrakes and then took gear and flaps and landed on 31. He was impressed - I was amazed at the authority of the A/P!
Proceeded to crash everytime since then. Bought and have since deleted the rubbish programme.
Had a go in the Learjet. Max angle climbout through LaiYuMun Gap to 7000', chopped throttles, rolled inverted and pulled through with speedbrakes and then took gear and flaps and landed on 31. He was impressed - I was amazed at the authority of the A/P!
Proceeded to crash everytime since then. Bought and have since deleted the rubbish programme.
Guest
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Now you "real" pilots don't really want to come across as a bunch of totally arrogant, elitist, prejudiced, patronising snobs do you?
Well most of you certainly seem that way. The fact is there are simulators which are a travesty of what it "feels" like and other sims which go to great lengths to get reasonably close, given that you have a tiny joystick and a 15 inch monitor.
I have worked for over a year (with working pro pilots) to get fly version 1 to emulate the feel of GA and corporate aircraft as near as we can get given the limitations, and yes, real world pilots have actually complimented us on our efforts.
Of course it's easy to dismiss this endeavour as the work of sad anoracks - all very well for those lucky enough to fly for a living. But for the rest of us, for whom flying has become a nightmare of form filling, ludicrous medicals, insane expense, and an activity now only open to the privileged, simulators are a good way of at least absorbing the flavour of something "real" pilots take for granted.
Just be bloody grateful you actually get paid to do it. Some of us have two options: Go gliding or fly simulators. We don't need your patronising tone, thank you!!
Rob Young
Well most of you certainly seem that way. The fact is there are simulators which are a travesty of what it "feels" like and other sims which go to great lengths to get reasonably close, given that you have a tiny joystick and a 15 inch monitor.
I have worked for over a year (with working pro pilots) to get fly version 1 to emulate the feel of GA and corporate aircraft as near as we can get given the limitations, and yes, real world pilots have actually complimented us on our efforts.
Of course it's easy to dismiss this endeavour as the work of sad anoracks - all very well for those lucky enough to fly for a living. But for the rest of us, for whom flying has become a nightmare of form filling, ludicrous medicals, insane expense, and an activity now only open to the privileged, simulators are a good way of at least absorbing the flavour of something "real" pilots take for granted.
Just be bloody grateful you actually get paid to do it. Some of us have two options: Go gliding or fly simulators. We don't need your patronising tone, thank you!!
Rob Young
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You guys that denigrate PC sims should stop and think for a moment. What are YOU doing to promote aviation ?
You should be encouraging anything to do with the wonderful experience that is flying a plane. I know that many real-life pilots fly flight sims and contribute to the simming community.
Get a life yourself.
Jonathan (Student Power / Glider Pilot)
You should be encouraging anything to do with the wonderful experience that is flying a plane. I know that many real-life pilots fly flight sims and contribute to the simming community.
Get a life yourself.
Jonathan (Student Power / Glider Pilot)
Guest
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Folks don't get too wound up. There are many professional pilots who are 'closet' sim users, they are just too afraid to admit it 
But it is sad to see some so-called 'professional' pilots had to resort to 'insulting' aviation hobbyists.
Each to their own, as they say.
But it is sad to see some so-called 'professional' pilots had to resort to 'insulting' aviation hobbyists.
Each to their own, as they say.
Guest
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Give a good quality combat sim like Falcon 4 or Flanker 2.5 a try, many hours of harmless engrossing entertainment to be had.
Don't know why this subject should cause such
emotion outbursts among the pilots.
Fanatics exist in any pastime or hobby,they go to far, their lives are taken over by their sport,look at golf.
Don't know why this subject should cause such
emotion outbursts among the pilots.
Fanatics exist in any pastime or hobby,they go to far, their lives are taken over by their sport,look at golf.
Guest
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All, although I am a "real" airline pilot in my "real" life, I have spend the last 12 years expanding my experience on PC based flight sims. And yes, there are so many things I have learnt from real flying that I wouldn't have learnt from a flight sim. But there are about twice as many things I learned from flying sims. Their versatility and realism are still a great help to improve my flying skills. Recently I bought X-Plane, a flight sim that uses actual aerodynamic laws and blade element method to calculate the aircraft behaviour.It also alows you to change a lot of aircraft caracteristics. This sim has given me a much deeper understanding of aerodynamics. Flying in a regional airliner, I often see peoples skills and understanding of principles of flight deteriorate as they fly longer. If more pilots would open their minds and understand the benefits flight sims could give us, I think the whole aviation comunity would gain from that. If you stop looking at fs's as a toy, and start to use them as a tool to improve your skills and understanding, you'll know what I mean...
Guest
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All, although I am a "real" airline pilot in my "real" life, I have spend the last 12 years expanding my experience on PC based flight sims. And yes, there are so many things I have learnt from real flying that I wouldn't have learnt from a flight sim. But there are about twice as many things I learned from flying sims. Their versatility and realism are still a great help to improve my flying skills. Recently I bought X-Plane, a flight sim that uses actual aerodynamic laws and blade element method to calculate the aircraft behaviour.It also alows you to change a lot of aircraft caracteristics. This sim has given me a much deeper understanding of aerodynamics. Flying in a regional airliner, I often see peoples skills and understanding of principles of flight deteriorate as they fly longer. If more pilots would open their minds and understand the benefits flight sims could give us, I think the whole aviation comunity would gain from that. If you stop looking at fs's as a toy, and start to use them as a tool to improve your skills and understanding, you'll know what I mean...
Guest
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Just to add my thruppence-worth.
I've a PPL with about 110 hours, and am also a fan of GA simming. I think there's definitely a place for the sim as a tool (primarily in instrument work) toward training.
I can't say for definite whether flying Navaids on FS saved me money during my training, but it definitely helped. Having some knowledge of how things "work" saves precious time in the air and allows you to focus on how these things are applied in the real world. Certainly several hours spent bumbling about on FS is more cost effective than flying backwards and forwards over a VOR beacon in a Cessna trying to understand which way the needle should be pointing.
While simming is clearly no substitute for the real thing, I think it can make your time in the air more focused and enjoyable.
I've a PPL with about 110 hours, and am also a fan of GA simming. I think there's definitely a place for the sim as a tool (primarily in instrument work) toward training.
I can't say for definite whether flying Navaids on FS saved me money during my training, but it definitely helped. Having some knowledge of how things "work" saves precious time in the air and allows you to focus on how these things are applied in the real world. Certainly several hours spent bumbling about on FS is more cost effective than flying backwards and forwards over a VOR beacon in a Cessna trying to understand which way the needle should be pointing.
While simming is clearly no substitute for the real thing, I think it can make your time in the air more focused and enjoyable.
Guest
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Certain STDs do have their uses. (Synthetic Training Devices, I mean!). Expensive full-motion simulators are used for the majority of flight training on large aircraft and PC-based emulators can be very useful for understanding how instruments etc. respond in procedural flying and for practising FMS interactivity.
The full-motion simulators which I instruct upon are no longer realistic of the aircraft they purport to represent and my first flight in the real aircraft with new students is invariably taken up with teaching the differences in handling (much heavier in roll and a totally different stick force gradient in pitch), plus the vastly different avionic fit. Although it is quite fun to beat up the aerodrome at 20 ft and 350KIAS in the 'box' now and again!
Things like MS Flight Simulator give an unrealistic idea of HOW to fly an aircraft, but they do at least give their players (not 'pilots') an idea of WHAT the instruments represent as aircraft attitude and instrument indications can be seen at the same time. They are virtually useless for anything else - but understanding the progress of, for example, an NDB join, hold and let down by being able to watch both flight path and instrument response simultaneously is a most worthwhile training aid. Anything more is just an expensive substitute for the boyhood game of sitting on an old chair with a broomstick pretending to be a fighter pilot!!
The full-motion simulators which I instruct upon are no longer realistic of the aircraft they purport to represent and my first flight in the real aircraft with new students is invariably taken up with teaching the differences in handling (much heavier in roll and a totally different stick force gradient in pitch), plus the vastly different avionic fit. Although it is quite fun to beat up the aerodrome at 20 ft and 350KIAS in the 'box' now and again!
Things like MS Flight Simulator give an unrealistic idea of HOW to fly an aircraft, but they do at least give their players (not 'pilots') an idea of WHAT the instruments represent as aircraft attitude and instrument indications can be seen at the same time. They are virtually useless for anything else - but understanding the progress of, for example, an NDB join, hold and let down by being able to watch both flight path and instrument response simultaneously is a most worthwhile training aid. Anything more is just an expensive substitute for the boyhood game of sitting on an old chair with a broomstick pretending to be a fighter pilot!!
Guest
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Well this thread has resurrected hasn't it? I agree with the comments some have made about the arrogance of certain pilots here. I think it's misplaced, these sims can only encourage people to take up flying. I wish I had it when I started flying, I'm sure it would have saved me money.
Having said that I heard a cautionary tale of an Instructor who was caught out by a member of the Microsoft generation. It was a familiarisation flight, a young guy who was obviously keen, he had all the terminology off pat and talked the talk. So much so, that the Instructor was lulled into letting his guard drop a bit, so when the student asked to follow through on the controls during take off, he agreed.
All went well until rotation when the guy panicked and shouted 'No no' and pushed the yoke forward. The Instructor quickly landed back on, but the aircraft swerved off the runway into a large standing pool of water. There was no damage but the Instructor got his socks wet when he stepped out the aeroplane into water up to his ankles.
Quite simply in spite of his extensive 'experience' flying the sim, the sensation of actually leaving the ground was frightening to him and he panicked. You can't simulate that. Of course thats why we fly, to experience that sensation. Not everyone enjoys it.
To cap it all, after recovering his composure the guy wandered back to the office to enquire about booking another flight. The Instructors comments were not recorded!
However, most people are more sensible than that, but there's always someone who thinks it'll be the same in real life as on a PC in the bedroom.
Having said that I heard a cautionary tale of an Instructor who was caught out by a member of the Microsoft generation. It was a familiarisation flight, a young guy who was obviously keen, he had all the terminology off pat and talked the talk. So much so, that the Instructor was lulled into letting his guard drop a bit, so when the student asked to follow through on the controls during take off, he agreed.
All went well until rotation when the guy panicked and shouted 'No no' and pushed the yoke forward. The Instructor quickly landed back on, but the aircraft swerved off the runway into a large standing pool of water. There was no damage but the Instructor got his socks wet when he stepped out the aeroplane into water up to his ankles.
Quite simply in spite of his extensive 'experience' flying the sim, the sensation of actually leaving the ground was frightening to him and he panicked. You can't simulate that. Of course thats why we fly, to experience that sensation. Not everyone enjoys it.
To cap it all, after recovering his composure the guy wandered back to the office to enquire about booking another flight. The Instructors comments were not recorded!
However, most people are more sensible than that, but there's always someone who thinks it'll be the same in real life as on a PC in the bedroom.
