Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Pax sue Boeing in DBX crash

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Pax sue Boeing in DBX crash

Old 16th Aug 2017, 23:06
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA
Age: 56
Posts: 34
Pax sue Boeing in DXB crash

More than a dozen passengers aboard an Emirates airline flight that crashed in August 2016 sued plane-maker Boeing on Tuesday in Cook County Circuit Court, blaming an allegedly defective switch.

The Boeing 777-300 flight was headed to Dubai, United Arab Emirates, from India.

All 300 people aboard Emirates Flight EK 521 survived the crash-landing in Dubai, scrambling down emergency slides before flames consumed the plane, but one firefighter was killed battling the blaze. It was the worst crash in the airline's history.

The lawsuit alleges, among other problems, that the aircraft's system prevented the operation of a switch at a critical moment and that the plane didn't provide any warning to the crew that the switch wasn't working.

The plaintiffs, who are residents of the United Kingdom, Switzerland, the UAE and Turkey, suffered serious physical and psychological injuries that will result in future medical bills and lost earnings, the lawsuit says.



Passengers sue Boeing in Cook County court over worst crash in Emirates history - Chicago Tribune

Last edited by underfire; 17th Aug 2017 at 19:03.
underfire is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 01:47
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 688
Can a mod please correct the airport code in the title?
Chris2303 is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 04:48
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: FL, USA
Posts: 2,592
UAE investigators will look at the actions of the flight crew after no problems were found with the aircraft's systems or engines, according to an Aug. 6 interim report from the the UAE's General Civil Aviation Authority.
A'righty then, which switch was it?
B2N2 is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 05:17
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Oz
Posts: 818
What was the end result with the two pilots? Are they still there?
PoppaJo is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 07:18
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 51
Posts: 2,753
What was the end result with the two pilots? Are they still there?
No.............
White Knight is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 07:21
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DESDI or BUBIN
Posts: 378
It was the TOGA switch on the thrust levers. It was inhibited in ground mode so therefore when he pressed it, it didn't work. However they assumed it did and climbed away from the ground at idle thrust.

The pilots were decorated in the New Year Honours List accordingly........
Eau de Boeing is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 07:28
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: FL, USA
Posts: 2,592
That's a failure of systems knowledge not a systems failure.
B2N2 is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 07:29
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 195
If you push the switch and it is in a mode which stops it doing anything, do the pilots get a warning that it's not going to do anything?
RickNRoll is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 07:40
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DESDI or BUBIN
Posts: 378
No, apart from good old fashioned airmanship and checking what you command is what you have.........

I don't think Boeing published in any training course that it was inhibited, but I bat for the French side now in airliners so stand by to be corrected.
Eau de Boeing is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 09:06
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 64
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by RickNRoll View Post
If you push the switch and it is in a mode which stops it doing anything, do the pilots get a warning that it's not going to do anything?
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. For example if you press the the autopilot button when on the ground in my aircraft, nothing happens. Nothing! But move a power lever beyond a certain value and the takeoff configuration warning is activated even though no engines are running and you are parked at the gate. Other times certain modes don't as advertised and at other times they just refuse to engage. But overall it doesn't really matter. We've been taught for the last 25 years or so to look on the FMA bar and engine performance displays to determine what the aircraft thinks is going to happen. If you don't like what you see, you do something about it. That's why we still have a job.

These compo hungry passengers would be better off taking Emirates to court in erm... Ah. That's a problem! Maybe people should think who they fly with for when things really go wrong.

PM

Last edited by Piltdown Man; 17th Aug 2017 at 10:22. Reason: Spelling, as ever!
Piltdown Man is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 09:45
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London
Posts: 165
The preliminary report into the incident, published on 5th September, is at

https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublicat...-%20A6-EMW.pdf
topgas is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 11:23
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1996
Location: Check with Ops
Posts: 742
Five Boeing types and it's always been in the manual. Just piss-poor systems knowledge and assuming instead of checking. Boeing is certainly not to blame in this matter; the culpability lays firmly with the pilots.

I can't abide these ambulance-chasing scum; they're screwing up the world for the rest of us with all the nanny state, we-know-better rules we have foisted upon us because of greedy people and greedy lawyers.
Pontius is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 11:35
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,509
What happened after the B777 crash in SFO. The pilots thought the auto throttle would save the day. Some guys chimed in here that there was a gotcha and they enlightened ones trained it to their pilots, others didn't. Was the gotcha a published one or a 'discovered' one? Did any pax start a class action claim against Boeing? I confess my ignorance and hence the question.

In Emirates case should the claim be against Boeing; others have said the switch did as advertised, so was it a known factor? Or was it more a training fault at Emirates? what is the Emirate SOP for a GA? Does it include 'check the power reading before raising the gear'? Is it written has it been trained? i.e. should the claim be against Boeing or Emirates?
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 11:40
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 686
Go-around
Flaps20
CHECK THRUST
Positive rate - gear up.

If you do and say this, you will live.
fox niner is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 11:51
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,509
We know that, and it has been said previously. My question is, what is written in Emirates SOP? If it is, and the crew didn't do it, then Emirates might be the target, not Boeing.
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 12:02
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: England
Posts: 335
It's usual in these cases to sue everyone who might have a deep enough pocket. I'm surprised they're not suing the engine manufacturer too (Rolls-Royce). But the primary target of the lawsuit ought to be Emirates: perhaps they can't be sued because they've no corporate presence in the US, and/or because they're owned by Dubai government?
OldLurker is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 12:12
  #17 (permalink)  

Controversial, moi?
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,592
Five Boeing types and it's always been in the manual. Just piss-poor systems knowledge and assuming instead of checking. Boeing is certainly not to blame in this matter; the culpability lays firmly with the pilots.

I can't abide these ambulance-chasing scum; they're screwing up the world for the rest of us with all the nanny state, we-know-better rules we have foisted upon us because of greedy people and greedy lawyers.
Completely agree.


What happened after the B777 crash in SFO. The pilots thought the auto throttle would save the day. Some guys chimed in here that there was a gotcha and they enlightened ones trained it to their pilots, others didn't. Was the gotcha a published one or a 'discovered' one?
Lack of systems knowledge. Should have been covered in training and is explained in the manuals.

Go-around
Flaps20
CHECK THRUST
Positive rate - gear up.

We know that, and it has been said previously. My question is, what is written in Emirates SOP? If it is, and the crew didn't do it, then Emirates might be the target, not Boeing.
Yes it is written in the SOPs apart from being basic airmanship.
M.Mouse is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 13:20
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Posts: 1,287
Originally Posted by underfire View Post

The lawsuit alleges, among other problems, that the aircraft's system prevented the operation of a switch at a critical moment and that the plane didn't provide any warning to the crew that the switch wasn't working.
Me = lowly lapsed PPL, so more than happy to be told I'm wrong, but surely:

1. The switch WAS working precisely as advertised and described in the technical specifications and manuals for the aeroplane. That the switch didn't produce the desire effect is no more the manufacturer's fault than it would be if a car's accelerator pedal failed to make the car go faster when the gearbox was in neutral.

2. The aeroplane surely provided more than adequate warning that the driver's switch selection wasn't causing the engines to go to TOGA thrust by the way that the engines remained at their previous setting. The crew would get audio, tactile and instrument indications of a thrust change (never mind the movement of the thrust levers) which clearly didn't happen.

3. Any driver who initiates and sustains a TOGA climb when the airspeed is clearly dropping through the floor (TOGA button or no TOGA button) should be moved to another seat - not one of the good ones at the front.

Am I wrong?

PDR
PDR1 is online now  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 13:48
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home
Posts: 951
PDR1
Correct! It's EK and the crew at fault if any suing to be done.
The aircraft worked as taught in the conversion Course. Non adherence to SOPs and a huge lack of basic airmanship. which seems to be sadly lacking in recent EK incidents.
You won't climb for long with the thrust levers at idle.
cessnapete is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2017, 14:00
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Posts: 1,287
But what kind of pilot maintains a climbing attitude with the airspeed unwinding like a big fast unwinding thing? Even if he/she was too busy/stressed to notice the lack of engine winding-up sounds or to take in the lack of increased engine rpm on the gauges during his scan SURELY any "emergency climb" manoeuver involves scanning the ASI to hold the aeroplane at best climbing speed (or at least note that they hadn't pulled it too hard)?

Is it really true that a current ATPL could just hit the TOGA and assume it was safe to pull to max alpha or sommink? I really struggle with that!

PDR
PDR1 is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.