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3 point turn in a 757

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3 point turn in a 757

Old 26th Jun 2017, 18:46
  #21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by oceancrosser View Post
Why? Did someone not understand the use of Thrust Reversers as laid out in the FCOM?
My bad, it says now to start reducing approaching 60 and idle by taxi speed, I don't know where I found that 80kts limit (perhaps a trainer talked about it way back) but I guess a should start reading the SOP revisions....

Regarding the video, I noticed how quickly after becoming stationary the reversers open, quick thinking to save a possible embarrasing situation. Luckily for them it turned out ok (but might warrant a quick visit down to the office) I don't find anything in the 757 AFM that prohibs using reverse thrust for this purpose but I understand that at least the 777/787 forbid it??
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Old 26th Jun 2017, 18:55
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To me the questions still arise:

Why not use the turning circle at the end? Why cook the brakes to make a short turn off unnecessarily; unless it was closed?
Why not initiate the turn off from the far edge of the runway to give maximum space if you've missed that turn off?

The latest chart I can find (stand to be corrected) shows a 30m wide movement area on the short runway and turning circles at both ends. The 2nd turn off must surely have given some brake cooling issues as well as a crowded cockpit. It's only got 4 seats not 204.

The problem with untrained backing up is if you get it moving too fast and panic and hit the brakes..............it's a risky 'try it & see for the first time' manoeuvre.

Last edited by RAT 5; 26th Jun 2017 at 19:26.
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Old 26th Jun 2017, 19:26
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Lots of why this and why that. That's one of the main problems with these videos. We have no idea of the circumstances at the time, only lots of maybe this or maybe that. Here's another maybe: the company 737 had a slot to meet and ATC asked the 757 to expedite vacating the runway after landing. Note that I don't mean ATC specified he try for that taxiway. That part would have been at the Captain's own initiative.
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Old 26th Jun 2017, 19:29
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A burst tyre would have been an embarrassing reason for B757 to miss its own slot: perhaps.
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Old 26th Jun 2017, 19:34
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Here's another maybe: the company 737 had a slot to meet and ATC asked the 757 to expedite vacating the runway after landing.
ATC: "xxxxx expedite"
757 PIC: "Unable"
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Old 26th Jun 2017, 20:09
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No, peekay4, not like that at all. The fact that the aircraft would normally go to the end to turn around and then backtrack to that taxiway, the ATC instruction to expedite would have been in that context. Having said that, ATC would normally make that request after landing. But without an ATC transcript or indeed a CVR transcript, we can speculate until the cows come home.
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Old 26th Jun 2017, 20:11
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Cathay did it last year in Hong Kong on a 777. Captain was fired, not sure where he was from.
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Old 26th Jun 2017, 20:51
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The fact that the aircraft would normally go to the end to turn around and then backtrack to that taxiway, the ATC instruction to expedite would have been in that context. Having said that, ATC would normally make that request after landing. But without an ATC transcript or indeed a CVR transcript, we can speculate until the cows come home.
Just simply using the full width of a runway will prevent this from happening. Many captains in my life have done a 180 ON the runway, initiating by going towards the runway edge before making a swing through the centreline. Never starting from its centreline!
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Old 26th Jun 2017, 21:23
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A B752 is capable of performing a 180 on a 150' wide runway like that at Skiathos, but there isn't a huge margin for error.
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Old 26th Jun 2017, 22:37
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Thanks for info, I was aware of this (the minimum width of pavement turns 120'), what I refer to is doing a 180 by first moving away from the CL to give some more space as we are not all test pilots.
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Old 26th Jun 2017, 23:03
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Maybe that's a Boeing characteristic ... Ryanair 738s used to make 180° turns at FKB on a regular basis ... with great aplomb!
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Old 26th Jun 2017, 23:40
  #32 (permalink)  
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Just happened I wrote this on Quora recently.


In 40 years I only reversed twice, and that was with turbo-prop aircraft rather then turbo-jet.

As mentioned the danger to the engine is very significant as a cloud of bits is usually thrown to the front of the engines which gulp in a LOT of air. In my case, there was no option as the tug had gone TU. (don’t ask what that means)

We were able to alter the prop blades so they gave us reverse, but now the real dangers start. We were taking responsibility for the safety of the aircraft and ground personnel, where normally we’d hand over to the tug crew. The other big issue is, one must NOT touch the brakes. An aircraft sitting on its tail is usually a career-changing issue. So, a very careful change from reverse to forward thrust is needed before you even put your feet over the pedals.

A long time ago, my pal’s Britannia was parked in Mogadishu, I think it was. The terminal was then just a huge wooden structure. He was ordered to reverse.

“But . . . But . . .”

The order came again, very clear and very loud. The Whispering Giant collapsed the building.
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 00:29
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Very simple

If this company, (it's obvious from the video who it is!) allows B757 to reverse using TLs, then the crew are in the clear.

If not, then the crew (captain?) is a cowboy/cowgirl!

As I said. Very simple.
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 01:31
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I was a F/E on the B727 at KBOS. Due a mixup, by ATC, IIRC, we wound up face to face with a L1011 outbound, we were inbound and both of us on the Inner or the Outer. Captain asked the FO and me what we thought. Well, a tow us gonna be wait, if it's clear to the rear, go for it. We went about 100 yards back to a transition to the Inner or the Outer. We were doing powerbacks normally then.
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 06:15
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Lands,..makes a possible error of judgement in the turnoff..at this point,it matters not that there may or not be a turning circle at the end.
Now,committed to the manoeuvre,the pilot carefully executes a non approved/recommended procedure...and finishes the job.
Oversimplified response helps no one!...except those who think they are immune from error...

I am beginning to suspect that any challenging conditions,bought on by themselves,or by nature, should be cause for flying bans,for some airlines!

As an ex hatter,I doff mine.
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 07:40
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Very simple

If this company, (it's obvious from the video who it is!) allows B757 to reverse using TLs, then the crew are in the clear.

If not, then the crew (captain?) is a cowboy/cowgirl!

As I said. Very simple.
What if no book of authority mentions it?

Two distinctly different attitudes to aviation are,

- Everything is allowed, unless specifically prohibited

and,

- Nothing is allowed, unless specifically approved
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 08:02
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
A B752 is capable of performing a 180 on a 150' wide runway like that at Skiathos, but there isn't a huge margin for error.
Have you ever been to JSI, or even looked at the runway plate??
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 08:23
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And your point is ... ?
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 08:28
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It's 30 metres wide
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Old 27th Jun 2017, 09:04
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Originally Posted by SFCC View Post
It's 30 metres wide
OK, then I stand corrected - I was using Google Earth, but I have the plate in front of me now.

The pavement width is 150', but the declared runway width is indeed 30m.
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